Carry one in the chamber?

[bcperry2000]

So yesterday I had to work late until about 12:45am. I live close to downtown Dallas so am going south on 75. I exit Mockingbird as usual and the first thought that pops into my head is the possibilty of a homeless person being on the corner.

Normally, this would not bother me. BUT, I have the top and doors off and it's close to 1am. Homeless people can be mentally ill sometimes so I'm wary of them when I'm exposed. So I pull up to the light and to my left is a guy on a bike with his girlfriend. Behind them is a car full of highschool/college kids. To my right are 2 scary looking guys. In the middle of the day this would not have scared me as much, but I've seen enough episodes of Cops and First 48 to know that Dallas is dangerous at night. I have my Kel-Tec P3AT wedged between my seat and the console. I felt very nervous so I slowly reach down and load one in the chamber. I never carry one in the chamber because I am so paranoid about an accidental discharge. This is probably my mistake, but I still haven't grown comfortable with the idea of carrying loaded. Especially relying on the long trigger pull as the only safety. Anyway, regardless....

So I put one in the chamber, place it in my cup holder and pray for the light to turn. In the meantime, the car of highschool/college kids have lowered all their windows and started heckling the couple next to me. Whistling and yelling. I don't turn and look for fear that they'll start on me.

Well, light turns green and I turn left along with the car of punks. The scary guys on the right of me go straight so they're no longer an issue. As I'm making the turn I see a kid throw his plastic bottle at me. Misses and hits the back of my jeep. I still try to avoid eye contact and act as if I dont even notice. At this point I'm sweating and really nervous. I'm trying to drive slower so they'll just pass me, but they make it a point to stay right with me, heckling me the entire time. Calling me all kinds of names, etc. So I speed up to get away from them and they pull in behind me right on my tail. Honking and flashing, I think they were trying to get me to pull over into the parking lot on our right and start something. So I keep driving and eventually they do turn into the empty parking lot. I continue home, unload my gun, and do my best to sleep.

Even this morning I'm still a little shaken up. I've never been so afraid for my life. They didnt physically harm me or anything so I did not feel justified in exposing my weapon. Maybe it's all the Cops and First 48 I've been watching, but I am scared to try driving at night with the top and doors off now. I'm also reconsidering my carrying style of not keeping one in the chamber. I feel like if something were to have happened last night, my weapon would have been worthless had I not loaded one. So I'm thinking I may start looking at a new CCW that has some safety features that I'm comfortable enough with to start carrying loaded (besides a long trigger pull). Any suggestions?

[GreytSilly]

If you don't have a round chambered you can always throw the gun at them and hope you hit a vital spot. I would never ever carry without a round chambered. I agree with you that you were not justified in showing your firearm. My son had a crack whore open his passenger side door one day while sitting at a light in downtown Rochester. He pointed his pepper spray at her and told her to get away, shut the door, or you're going to get a faceful of pepper spray. She complied quickly. Pepper spray is an option to have along as well as your weapon. Situations don't warrant excessive solutions. By the way, my son also carries a Springfield XD subcompact in .40 S&W or a KelTec .380 along with the spray. Just my 2 cents, others may disagree.

[mcds99]

Work on your look.

The 2 guys that looked BAD next to you have the look right. No body messes with them because they look like they could do some damage if you mess with them.

If you look like an easy target you will be an easy target.

OH and CALL 911 next time someone throws something at you!

[bcperry2000]

If you don't have a round chambered you can always throw the gun at them and hope you hit a vital spot. I would never ever carry without a round chambered. I agree with you that you were not justified in showing your firearm. My son had a crack whore open his passenger side door one day while sitting at a light in downtown Rochester. He pointed his pepper spray at her and told her to get away, shut the door, or you're going to get a faceful of pepper spray. She complied quickly. Pepper spray is an option to have along as well as your weapon. Situations don't warrant excessive solutions. By the way, my son also carries a Springfield XD subcompact in .40 S&W or a KelTec .380 along with the spray. Just my 2 cents, others may disagree.

Agreed. If you're gonna carry it, have it ready. With the advances in weaponry these days, you're not looking at a great chance of accidental discharge. Keep one chambered, and the magazine filled.

As for the pepper spray...also a good idea. Heck....you could've sprayed the pepper spray in the air as the kids pulled behind you and hoped it got into their direct wind. That would've been funny.

I'm thinking pepper spray would be a great option to keep in my Jeep. I've been looking at the XD40SC so I may just have to bite. It's got all kinds of nifty safety features.


Work on your look.

The 2 guys that looked BAD next to you have the look right. No body messes with them because they look like they could do some damage if you mess with them.

If you look like an easy target you will be an easy target.

OH and CALL 911 next time someone throws something at you!

Yep, I'll be sure to work on my look. I think I need thicker eyebrows. Or maybe a large scar on the side of my face :)

[Robar]

Yep, I'll be sure to work on my look. I think I need thicker eyebrows. Or maybe a large scar on the side of my face :)

...and you could always walk around with a potato in your pants. :tease:

[neopj3]

I carry two things of pepper spray and fire ext. Don't have my permit yet but I will soon. I was almost car jack a few years back off I-35 and Riverside in Austin. Needless to say you were right to be aware of your surroundings, I think everyone will agree with me here. Always keep one in the chamber and look for ways to avoid getting into a situation where you'd have to use it. I had a guy try and get me to fight after he thought I was trying to cutt him off in a parking lot. I went over a curb to avoid getting rear-ended and then hitting the jerk in front of me. He changed his tone after he looked at the nosal of the fire ext from my open drivers window. Driving a Jeep means we all have to be alittle more careful and aware. You did good and try not to work so late.:bleh:

[bcperry2000]

I carry two things of pepper spray and fire ext. Don't have my permit yet but I will soon. I was almost car jack a few years back off I-35 and Riverside in Austin. Needless to say you were right to be aware of your surroundings, I think everyone will agree with me here. Always keep one in the chamber and look for ways to avoid getting into a situation where you'd have to use it. I had a guy try and get me to fight after he thought I was trying to cutt him off in a parking lot. I went over a curb to avoid getting rear-ended and then hitting the jerk in front of me. He changed his tone after he looked at the nosal of the fire ext from my open drivers window. Driving a Jeep means we all have to be alittle more careful and aware. You did good and try not to work so late.:bleh:

technically, you do not have to have your CHL to have a firearm in your vehicle or on your person in TX. as long as you are "traveling". as of September of last year, the burden of proof is now on the LEO. almost defeats the purpose of the CHL but i doubt an LEO would appreciate your "traveling" story if ever caught :)

http://www.dallasobserver.com/2007-10-25/news/have-gun-will-travel/

[AK4Dave]

I also agree....if you have a CCW permit, then I sure would have one in the chamber.
One other thing......as soon as the guy threw the plastic bottle at you, then if you had a cell phone, you could have put it to your ear and looked at them talking, as if you were describing them and telling 911 their license plate number. That may have made them high tail it.
It's hard to say about showing your weapon to them. I know I would have loved to scare the s**t out of the little pukes. You wouldn't even have to point it at them....just start waving it around like you were some kind of crazy man!!! I'm sure that would get their attention. But.......like I say, it's a tuff call, because then they might call the police and say you pointed it at them, and it would be your word against a car full of liars.
In this case a loaded cell phone may have got them to leave you alone.
Good luck and be safe....

[Ivanko]

I think you did the right thing, and they are just idiots who don't deserve for you to get worked up over. That said, I think it is good to analyze everything and give yourself a bunch of "what if " scenario's in your head for the future if something similar happens.

Regarding a round in the chamber, the 1911 is built perfectly for "cocked and locked". Pull it, drop the thumb safety, and you're ready to rock and roll.

As far as waving or flashing your gun, because they were bold enough to throw something at you, would they have even have been scared, or would they have been prodded even more by seeing your gun? That could have made it worse if you flashed it and they taunted you more with "shoot me" comments; or not, you'll never know. My personal philosophy is to only pull it if I plan on firing it, which is a last resort for me. 99.9% of the time a situation can be difused in some other method.

I know that different folks have different views than I do, and I respect that, this is just my opinion. I'm glad you're ok bc, and the important thing is that the worst thing that happened is a cup hit your jeep.

[only_in_my_jeep]

A lot of good advice has been given as to how to handle the situation you were in so I am not going to rehash that. I will add WTF????? If you don't have one in the chamber why have one at all. It is a whole hell of a lot easier to drop the safety and make the long pull (double action) than it is to load in a round then fire (and as safe too). It also takes less time and motions to boot. Hell I keep my snub nose with a full cylinder let alone my auto with a round chambered.

BTW the kids could have seen you work the gun and given today's mentality thought you had something planned that involved them and that might have been the reason for the way they acted. In the round chamberd senario you would never make a motion and still be ready to rock.

[Red Rubi]

I will add WTF????? If you don't have one in the chamber why have one at all. It is a whole hell of a lot easier to drop the safety and make the long pull (double action) than it is to load in a round then fire (and as safe too). It also takes less time and motions to boot.

It takes 1/2 a second to drop one in the chamber. If you don't have 1/2 second then you shouldn't even pull it. It's his choice, there's no need to knock him. He did everything right, it's usually always best to avoid the situation than provoke it.

[bcperry2000]

All your thoughts/ideas are appreciated. I've grown up around guns my entire life. However, the idea of carrying a gun for self-defense is relatively new to me, last year or so. I've always been taught to treat every gun as if it were loaded, check and double check the chamber of any gun you are handed, don't point a gun at something you don't intend to shoot, and don't put your finger on the trigger unless you intend to shoot. So I'm going to have to get accustomed to carrying loaded. To do this though, I need to be more comfortable with my carry weapon. Frankly, I'm just not comfortable with the Kel-tec. I've been racking my brain about it and I simply have no comfort level with the P3AT. The "safety" of a long trigger pull or the reliablity of the weapon itself. So I think I will start looking for a new gun with some additional safety features and more reputable manufacturer!! Possibly the Springfield XDSC, H&K 2000SK, or Walther PPS. The Kel-Tec will make a nice backup gun.

To avoid that type of situation in the future I will
1) Be moving to suburbia in the next month (not related to this incident)
2) Will not drive in sketchy areas at night with doors off
3) Work on my intimidation look :)


Anyone have any of the guns I've mentioned above? I'm just now starting to research them a bit.

[bcperry2000]

Have you looked at the Bersa Thunder 380?



I have several friends who own them and love them.. I personally don't have one yet.. But I have been thinking of getting one.. Because my S&W M&P40c is still a little big to carry with shorts and a t-shirt.. :crazyeyes:

yep, already got one. i love the bersa's cuz they're an awesome gun for the money. they have a concealed carry version too. i'm leaning towards the XD because of all the safety feature and indicators it has. plus...40 caliber

http://www.network54.com/Realm/tirodefensivo/BThunder380_CC_mid.jpg

[BLKRUBI]

...and you could always walk around with a potato in your pants. :tease:

Just make sure you put it in the front!:rotflmao2::rotflmao2:


I don't envy you, bc. That'sa tough call, but I'd be just as cautious with my top off also.

[possumface]

only pull gun if u plan on shooting it teenagers throwing things isn't a death sentence no gun required, you did right thing, i never carried one in the chamber , had a .22 cal. rim fired auto one time it had a bad firing pin from the factory a burr or something on it if you hit the gun it would fire and not just one round but the whole mag. it was full auto if you chambered it fired like a machine gun. ever since then i never carried one chambered. or one under a firing pin on others

[PoorDad]

If I am going to be carrying a weapon, it will have a round in the chamber. That is the way I was trained and the way I practice, so it is second nature. Whatever way you choose to go, practice is key. Since you have been around firearms all your life, you probably already know that, though. My only suggestion is, if you are worried about anaccidental discharge with one in the chamber, you may want to consider using a holster.

The main pistol I carry off duty is a P200SK. I like it because it is small (almost too small for my hand) and well made. It is easy to conceal, too. If you can, go to a range and see if they have the pistols you are considering. That should narrow it down to 1 or 2.

[bcperry2000]

If I am going to be carrying a weapon, it will have a round in the chamber. That is the way I was trained and the way I practice, so it is second nature. Whatever way you choose to go, practice is key. Since you have been around firearms all your life, you probably already know that, though. My only suggestion is, if you are worried about anaccidental discharge with one in the chamber, you may want to consider using a holster.

The main pistol I carry off duty is a P200SK. I like it because it is small (almost too small for my hand) and well made. It is easy to conceal, too. If you can, go to a range and see if they have the pistols you are considering. That should narrow it down to 1 or 2.

thanks! i'm really liking the P2000SK. there's a big gun show tomorrow so i'd love to go check one out. unfortunately i don't have that kind of $$ right now so i might have to ask for it for xmas or something :)

[Geeper4x4]

One in the chamber.
You were right not to show your weapon.
Pepper spray great: Fox Labs is my preference.
Important: Cell phone 911 - You are the victim cause you called for help first.

[Shoup]

I will say this, being a police officer in the Peoples Socialist Republic of Chicago, I thought you did it right minus the fact that you had to phyically put one in the chamber. I carry a Sig P245 and sometimes I carry my Compact XD45 (depends on what I am doing). I always have one in the chamber on or off duty. As far as someone said to have the "look" that is true, assholes are like animals they can sense fear and they know if you are afraid and they feed off of it. Pepper Spray is not a good option, I have seen people get a whole can in the face and shrug it off like it was nothing and they weren't high. I also carry my extra asp with me just as a precaution. Always and I repeat always have an extra magazine, one never knows if he is going to need it or not. I carry 2.

[HappyCurmudgeon]

I always keep one in the chamber. ALWAYS.

I carry a Glock 19, or my HK USP Compact interchangeably.

The Glock obviously has no external safety. I admittadly was at first, but I am no longer nervous with it. Keep in mind though, it is an ease of use thing. Especially where you admitted to being rattled, had you needed it, would you have been in the right mind enough to click off a manual safety? I have had oodles of training, and I know that i might not have been.

I was always a revolver guy growing up, but i like the auto's for carry, just my personal pref.

Pepper Spray is a great addition. but i dont view it as an option. The gun and the spray are simply tools, you just need to us the right one with the right application. You dont need a sledgehammer to put in a finishing nail (as fun as that may be...:synister:)

In my opinion, especially at night or alone in a scary area, your best weapon isnt a gun, or pepper spray, or a swat team in your back seat.


It is situational awareness.

When you pull up to a light, stay back from the car ahead of you, there are no extra points for conserving pavement. If you are on a road with more than two lanes, be on the outside lane, left or right doesnt matter. if someone is in a left turn center lane, dont be in the left lane next to them. The whole point is, Always leave yourself an escape route, leave room to turn and floor it. If you get scared, LEAVE. Make sure no ones is coming first and run the damn light, hop the curb, make an illegal U turn, whatever. Just LEAVE. In my opinion, a tactical retreat bears no shame at all.

I know and work around a lot of Cops, i dont know a one who would give you a ticket for bolting from a percieved dangerous situation, and even if you got caught blowing off a redlight to get out of Dodge, who cares?, pay the fine, go home and hug your wife/kids/jeep. Tomorrow is a new day. You'll be there to see it.

[mmcan]

I always keep one in the chamber. ALWAYS.

I carry a Glock 19, or my HK USP Compact interchangeably.

The Glock obviously has no external safety. I admittadly was at first, but I am no longer nervous with it. Keep in mind though, it is an ease of use thing. Especially where you admitted to being rattled, had you needed it, would you have been in the right mind enough to click off a manual safety? I have had oodles of training, and I know that i might not have been.

I was always a revolver guy growing up, but i like the auto's for carry, just my personal pref.

Pepper Spray is a great addition. but i dont view it as an option. The gun and the spray are simply tools, you just need to us the right one with the right application. You dont need a sledgehammer to put in a finishing nail (as fun as that may be...:synister:)

In my opinion, especially at night or alone in a scary area, your best weapon isnt a gun, or pepper spray, or a swat team in your back seat.


It is situational awareness.

When you pull up to a light, stay back from the car ahead of you, there are no extra points for conserving pavement. If you are on a road with more than two lanes, be on the outside lane, left or right doesnt matter. if someone is in a left turn center lane, dont be in the left lane next to them. The whole point is, Always leave yourself an escape route, leave room to turn and floor it. If you get scared, LEAVE. Make sure no ones is coming first and run the damn light, hop the curb, make an illegal U turn, whatever. Just LEAVE. In my opinion, a tactical retreat bears no shame at all.

I know and work around a lot of Cops, i dont know a one who would give you a ticket for bolting from a percieved dangerous situation, and even if you got caught blowing off a redlight to get out of Dodge, who cares?, pay the fine, go home and hug your wife/kids/jeep. Tomorrow is a new day. You'll be there to see it.




I try to teach my kids this as we drive, feeling the same way on all of the points you made. I also tell them not to get gas or go to the store after dark, and only go to places where there are a lot of people in well lit areas.

They think I'm paranoid.

But as an anesthesiologist, I see the end result of what mean people do to their victims. It is not necessarily a random occurrence (I think most people who get hurt late at night were not at home in bed minding their own business,...), but even innocent people become involved at some point. There is little respect for life, nor fear of the law and punishment.

Chambered is the way to go.

There is a book that should be read,...

http://www.amazon.com/Strong-Defense-Sanford/dp/0671535110/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1213480176&sr=8-1


Check it out.

Staying out of trouble is ALWAYS easier than getting out of trouble.

[J.C. Keller]

If you are going to carry, have one in the chamber.
You may not have time to chamber a round.
Good idea with the pepper spray I will be getting some for my jeep.

And this is also a good point, the real threat may not be the most obvious one. Am I right that you thought the tough guys where going to be the problem?
I've had alot of violent run'ins with people and it was when I wasn't armed.
If I had been it would have only changed the outcome if they had been armed.
Defend yourself!
The police cannot protect you, only pick up the pieces afterward.

And one other thing, that adrenaline is a wicked thing.
I've had to go and run to get it out of my system. I would just sit there and shake like I was on a super caffeine rush.

[Shoup]

Driving through the City I carry on my hip (a perk being the police) sometimes though, it gets clunky and in the way. I usually would stow it near the emergency brake or lay it on the passenger seat, but when the window is open and you aren't paying attention things could go wrong quick. So when I installed my seat covers I inadvertently installed them on the wrong seats with the side air bag openings facing inward :duh: I had a revelation though, and here is what I do, I used the opening as a holster on the side of the seat. I am having zippers installed as to cover up the openings but it works and it is there and easily accessible and concealed. Still not a fan of pepper spray, I have seen one to many guys take it like it was water, and they weren't high.

http://www.jk-forum.com/picture.php?albumid=2&pictureid=36
http://www.jk-forum.com/picture.php?albumid=2&pictureid=37

Now mind you that is my full size duty weapon and not my off duty weapon which is smaller (not by much though)

As far as the comment that was made about the police not being able to protect you, sorry we can't be everywhere at once. I haven't figured out that trick yet.

[red08rubicon_tx]

Not knocking you for being careful but I just wanted to add that I have carried my p3at for almost 2 years with a round in the chamber using just the belt clip, clipped inside my pants just behind my hip. Just make sure you are careful I've never even felt as if I were close to having an accidental discharge. Also I have an xd40 4" and have a friend that has the SC I love both and only went with the 4" for comfort accuracy but it is mainly for home protection or in the car on trips I rarely carry it on me though it's just so wide kinda uncomfortable. But it is definatly my favorite gun to shoot. Oh and I feel you handled your situation very well except maybe the phone call to report the little bastards to the cops.

[ProphetMan]

This is why Funky town is better than the big D... A thought about Pepper spray~ Your local friendly REI sells Bear Spray, it'll take a grizzly from 20ft. If your gonna spray those SMU kids, might as well do it right and from a distance. If you want a personal showing of such an item, come find me (Matt C) at REI dallas, i'm always trying to avoid actually doing work...

[Geeper4x4]

As someone else posted pepper spray may not be the right option. This is very true that is why I carry. I can tell you that if something went bad and you used your weapon on someone. You will be talking to your lawyer. If you have pepper spray on you or in your vehicle you have thought about less than lethal means to protect yourself. This could make your case for the fact that you did not have a Rambo mindset. Everything will be looked at in great detail. The more you have on your side the better. This will also be used against you because you have thought of multiple ways to attack someone (This is the other side of protect yourself).

Proper Training- There is no substitute.
Proper Practice- Application of the training.
Criminals- There is no shortage.

[yetibear]

A short training film to sow you it is not always necessary to load your carry weapon. A lot of these moves do require it to be loaded, but some don't.



http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa169/yetibear/lolgun2.gif

admittedly stolen from: thehighroad.org

[AK4Dave]

As far as the bear spray will "take" a grizzly at 20 feet.....yes they will shoot far, but like people, not all grizz care. After smelling and finding it, I've seen them put their face right in, and roll around in it....thought it was great stuff. Didn't bother him at all.
Many times, just the SOUND of the spray can going off is enough to scare them away.

[Shoup]

A short training film to sow you it is not always necessary to load your carry weapon. A lot of these moves do require it to be loaded, but some don't.



http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa169/yetibear/lolgun2.gif

admittedly stolen from: thehighroad.org

Is that not the right way to do it? Hell I have been doing it wrong all these years then.

[2k2wranglerx]

you did the right thing.

i also don't carry one in the chamber unless the pistol is on me. it's in my center console most of the time. i figure unless that's unlocked and the gun's out, there's no point having one in the chamber.

[bcperry2000]

i just picked up a Springfield Armory XD9 Subcompact.

http://gunutworld.net/RealGun/Handguns/Springfield_Armorys/XD9301.jpg

i gotta tell you. after reading the specs on it and the torture tests, i feel pretty comfortable carrying it with a round in the chamber. here's an idea of what safety features it has:

Trigger Safety
Grip Safety (controls trigger AND slide)
Out of battery Safety
Firing Pin Block
Striker Indicator
Loaded Chamber indicator

all that combined with a good holster and I don't think there's a better gun out there, safety wise. that's not to say that accidents can happen but all the features of the XD make it just a little harder to accidentally discharge when compared to other handguns. everyone knows that the #1 safety is between your ears, but we are human and have been known to error.

i love my Kel-Tec P3AT but i don't trust it. i've had the XD9 for a week and trust it completely. not to mention uncanny reliability and a lifetime warranty. AND if you haven't read about the 20,000 round torture test you need to read this. they tortured this more than they did the glock and it passed all tests with flying colors:

http://springfield-armory.primediaoutdoors.com/SPstory11.php



P.S. forgot to mention. the XDs all come with a nice case, 2 magazines, speedloader, holster, and mag holster. all for less than $500.

[GreytSilly]

i just picked up a Springfield Armory XD9 Subcompact.

http://gunutworld.net/RealGun/Handguns/Springfield_Armorys/XD9301.jpg

i gotta tell you. after reading the specs on it and the torture tests, i feel pretty comfortable carrying it with a round in the chamber. here's an idea of what safety features it has:

Trigger Safety
Grip Safety (controls trigger AND slide)
Out of battery Safety
Firing Pin Block
Striker Indicator
Loaded Chamber indicator

all that combined with a good holster and I don't think there's a better gun out there, safety wise. that's not to say that accidents can happen but all the features of the XD make it just a little harder to accidentally discharge when compared to other handguns. everyone knows that the #1 safety is between your ears, but we are human and have been known to error.

i love my Kel-Tec P3AT but i don't trust it. i've had the XD9 for a week and trust it completely. not to mention uncanny reliability and a lifetime warranty. AND if you haven't read about the 20,000 round torture test you need to read this. they tortured this more than they did the glock and it passed all tests with flying colors:

http://springfield-armory.primediaoutdoors.com/SPstory11.php



P.S. forgot to mention. the XDs all come with a nice case, 2 magazines, speedloader, holster, and mag holster. all for less than $500.

My son has the XD Subcompact in .40 S&W and he loves it. Reliable, accurate, small enough to hide in an inside the waistband holster. Wondering why you didn't go for the .40 instead of the 9, the size is the same?

[bcperry2000]

....Wondering why you didn't go for the .40 instead of the 9, the size is the same?

$$$. i can shoot way more 9mm. it's gotten to the point that i shoot mostly 9mm and .22lr with the price of ammo. i think i could have gotten the XD40 and swapped in a 9mm barrel, but i'd rather carry what i shoot and leave the plinking to the .22lr.

at first i was a little concerned with the size and weight. it's not thin or lightweight by any means. but if you ever run out of ammo in a gun fight, you could throw it and it would do some serious damage :) i did carry it for about 6 hrs yesterday while i was moving and forgot it was there t hough. and that was in a cheapo IWB holster and a flimsy belt. a good holster would be even better.

[Shoup]

My son has the XD Subcompact in .40 S&W and he loves it. Reliable, accurate, small enough to hide in an inside the waistband holster. Wondering why you didn't go for the .40 instead of the 9, the size is the same?

The .40 is a waste. Most of the higher end 9mm ammo has better ballistic testing than most .40 and .45. Plus as far as control of the weapon goes, the 9mm is easier to manage with recoil for better shot placement. The .40 is a necked down 10mm round and just a little to snappy

[Dutch]

No one mentioned my favorite defence technique....shooting to kill. Just kidding probably.

[USAF_GroundRat]

Hey BCPerry, I know right where you are talking about... been there many times. Although I am a very avid supporter of CCW and I carry daily, I just don't carry one in the pipe. I know it is not tactically the smartest thing to do, but I try my best to follow the same advice that Happy has given... SITUATIONAL AWARENESS. Though I do not carry mine chambered I have chambered it many times, depending on the situation. I have been in IDPA matches and understand the different situations. I know of people who have defended their life with their sidearm and in a situation or two, they would not have been able to chamber their pistol (gun pointed to head through car window, gun between seat and console, thug looked away for half second... bam). The decision to carry chambered or not is a decision each person has to make on their own.

As far as Glock goes... I WOULD ONLY CARRY A GLOCK CHAMBERED, IF IT WAS IN A HOLSTER.... too many people have stuck their GLOCK between their seat or in a pocket and had a pencil or other object depress the trigger and discharge their firearm. This is why I do not like Glocks... even though I own one. I would be an educated gun owner and use what you know about your particular firearm before carrying it chambered and blowing your nuts off.

To the member who advocated BRANDISHING A FIREARM... please do not do this. It is against the law. They could have called the cops, their word against yours... and trust me... he will take their word. Owning and carrying a firearm is a duty. If you are in a situation and you use the weapon to shoot someone, you better be damn sure that was your last option. If you pull over to argue with someone and shoot them, it will be hard to justify in court. If someone ran your vehicle off the road, and into that parking lot, then that is probably justifiable. If you are in fear for your life, or the life of others, then you are justified in using you weapon. CCW is a huge responsibility.

BCPerry, you did great by not brandishing your firearm. I agree with others on the look thing though! LOL. I think I would have not drawn my weapon... but I would have had a hard time not brake jobbing them or dragging a punk ass bitch out of a car and beating his ass with that plastic bottle. Douchebags! Anyway... take care and get a fake beard... a patch over one eye, and those fake tatoo sleeves the next time you drive out that late and exposed. :rotflmao2:

[CAOKKIE]

For what it is worth be careful carrying pepper spray in a vehicle. I used to do a lot of archery hunting of bears and got in a habit of carrying pepper sray in my jeep at all times. One morning I got up and went out to the jeep and the can had went off on it's own. God knows what would of happened if I had been going 70 down the freeway. Just use caution.

[Shoup]

Naval Security Forces Training (http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=2062939)

Here, they are using OC spray about 4 times that of what most police carry, that guy still looks pretty effective. I have used my OC can as an impact weapon more that I have sprayed it (an I have never sprayed it). When I was sprayed in the Academy, I was sprayed by (4) instructors using 1/2 a can each on me. I still disabled the threat who was an active resister and was able to secure him and radio for help. OC spray is not effective.

.45 vs 9mm (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mVqPn6V07k)

[gajeep]

I have carried an internal hammered, no safety, .40 for about 11 years now. I always used to keep one chambered.....then I had kids. He is not old/strong enough to put one in the chamber and I can get it done in half second. As far as pulling/showing it to those kids, I always work off the theory don't pull it unless you plan to use it. And don't use it to scare, you never know if someone in that car was also carrying and decided they feared for their life and shot at you.

[Cesar]

is it legal to have a round in the pipe in Texas??

If it is...wish it was here in California. We have so many stupid laws.

[yetibear]

is it legal to have a round in the pipe in Texas??

If it is...wish it was here in California. We have so many stupid laws.

I live about as far from California as you can get, so I am not to familiar with their laws, but I thought that the empty chamber was for OC.(?) But I have no reason to be current on Cali. carry laws so I am most likely mistaken in my thoughts.:dontknow2:

[bcperry2000]

is it legal to have a round in the pipe in Texas??

If it is...wish it was here in California. We have so many stupid laws.

hahahahaha. no it's not illegal.

[yetibear]

hahahahaha. no it's not illegal.
:rotflmao2::rotflmao2:You must help write the drafts for gun laws, using those double negatives to disguise your meaning.:rotflmao2::rotflmao2:

[DZNTS]

It sounds to me like you have some irrational fear issues. Scared people with guns are worse than the criminals. Scared people shoot because they don't know what to do in a situation usualy killing someone because they were incapable of handling/ thinking through a situation. Criminals know exactly why they are shooting at some one. Go see a shrink talk about whatever happened in your past to make you so afraid of "2 scary looking guys, and a car full of teenagers" and put your gun back in the top of your closet .

I am not a bleeding heart liberal FYI. I am a SSgt in the USAF. I own a small armory of weapons. I was a competitive .22 cal rifle marksman on my high schools' FFA team and placed 4th in the state of NC in 1996 (before columbine scools were allowed to have rifle, skeet/trap, and archery teams).

I just can't stand people who walk arround with the ability to end some ones life straped to their hip and will use it because they don't want to loose their wallet.

F it take my wallet I can get a new one (don't need to kill that guy pheewww that was close!).

F it throw a plastic bottle at my Jeep because you are most likely drunk and young (don't need to kill that guy pheewww that was close!).

OMG those guys are "SCARY LOOKING" :eek2:(?????..... grow a pair! don't need to kill those guys pheewww that was close!).


For a person with such an itchy trigger finger you must have seen the movie Shoot-em Up. I want you to try and recall the hero's tagline. I would type it but the admins would bann me for the profanity.

And remember if you shoot "2 scarry looking guys" for being scary looking you are the criminal and society WILL execute YOU!

See you at the range.

[yetibear]

It sounds to me like you have some irrational fear issues. Scared people with guns are worse than the criminals. Scared people shoot because they don't know what to do in a situation usualy killing someone because they were incapable of handling/ thinking through a situation. Criminals know exactly why they are shooting at some one. Go see a shrink talk about whatever happened in your past to make you so afraid of "2 scary looking guys, and a car full of teenagers" and put your gun back in the top of your closet .

I am not a bleeding heart liberal FYI. I am a SSgt in the USAF. I own a small armory of weapons. I was a competitive .22 cal rifle marksman on my high schools' FFA team and placed 4th in the state of NC in 1996 (before columbine scools were allowed to have rifle, skeet/trap, and archery teams).

I just can't stand people who walk arround with the ability to end some ones life straped to their hip and will use it because they don't want to loose their wallet.

F it take my wallet I can get a new one (don't need to kill that guy pheewww that was close!).

F it throw a plastic bottle at my Jeep because you are most likely drunk and young (don't need to kill that guy pheewww that was close!).

OMG those guys are "SCARY LOOKING" :eek2:(?????..... grow a pair! don't need to kill those guys pheewww that was close!).


For a person with such an itchy trigger finger you must have seen the movie Shoot-em Up. I want you to try and recall the hero's tagline. I would type it but the admins would bann me for the profanity.

And remember if you shoot "2 scarry looking guys" for being scary looking you are the criminal and society WILL execute YOU!

See you at the range.

Geeze, have you ever considered anger management counseling?

He didn't shoot at anyone, he didn't branish, and it doesn't sound like he wet himself. He was describing a situation he found himself in and asking advice. This is not THR with it's pages and pages of improbable what if scenarios. In case you missed it, this is a Jeep forum, we don't hang out in our kevlar and Blackwater tactikool web gear thumping our chests, and belittling others because they left their assault wheelbarrows in the Jeep. And we don't play mall ninjia using our High School experiences to prove our weapon prowess to grown men.

I'm sure bcperry is truly upset he doesn't score well in your measure of manlyness, but hell, I don't get all dewy eyed over High School rifle team members either.

And just what do you use to set your readiness condition level? "Scary looking men" might tend to raise mine a notch, being followed, tailgated, by a car load of drunks, regardless of their age, throwing things at me and my vehicle, flashing lights, blowing horn, these things may elevate my readiness condition a notch or two.
I'm more than willing to give bcperry the benefit of the doubt, and say he carries the stones of a reasonable man. I was not there, I don't know the neighbor hood he was in, the local crime levels, or the history of violence in his area. But I have lived long enough to admit that there are "scary looking" people in this world, and that some of them are more then willing to commit violence on others for either/both profit and fun. Profiling is not a bad thing, heightened awareness is a good skill to develop. he didn't needlessly pull a gun on anyone, but he was aware of his surroundings. You may be too tactikewl, but describe the people in the 3 closest vehicles from the last light you stopped at.

I always find the wallet thing interesting, if you walk up to me on the street and ask me for my wallet, I'm going to tell you no, and we will both go on our way, I'm not going to kill you for asking, I won't even threaten you for asking, it never hurts to ask. My wallet is not worth killing you over..........however, if I say no, and you, in some way use the threat of violence to force me to give you my wallet, obviously YOU think my wallet is worth killing me, you place a value of my life as less then my wallet. You show me you place a lesser value on my life than my wallet, I now fear for my life and yours is forfit. Besides, if you take my wallet, you get my drivers license, now I gotta go to motor vehicles, that is a fate worse than death, people have been killed for less.

Since you were not there, it's kind of immature of you to call anyone a scared, capon in need of a shrink. Since he did seem capable of thinking his way thru, and did handle the situation in a perfectly acceptable manner, perhaps it is your reading comprehension skills that need the tweaking and not his tecticular fortitude.

I have no problem with someone that has the ability to end some criminals life in order to protect his property.

I may give you my wallet, but I am NOT going to let you take it from me.

Throw a plastic bottle at my Jeep, I'm going on my way. A car full of drunks throw a bottle at my Jeep, follow me, tailgating, horn blowing, lights flashing, I'm going to attempt to get myself to a place of safety, but if I am forced to stop at a location not of my choosing, and they can't be warned off, and they do advance on me and I do fear for my safety, I WILL shoot them.

I see a couple of guys that strike me as "scary looking" I am going to observe their actions. I'm going to keep a wary eye on them, I will prepare myself, mentally, to counter any threat they pose. Something made me uncomfortable about them, something made bcperry uncomfortable, but he didn't draw on them, he didn't scream or even bust the light to get away from them. He observed their actions, and when they removed themselves as a threat he shifted his focus elsewhere. He did exactly what he should have done, his actions were proper and correct.

Since he never pulled his weapon, or threatened anyone in any way I won't even dignify your "itchy trigger finger" crack, with a response. Nor do I think he needs to fear a state execution as, and pay attention to this, he did nothing, no one so much as saw his weapon. He observed, that is it, that is all he did. He was aware of his souroundings, that is not even a crime in New York City.

Did bcperry make some glaring mistakes, yes, and he knows that and that was why he was asking. He was looking for some helpful advice, not looking to have his manhood questioned by a former High School Sharpshooter, with a small(lol) arsenal.

Maybe you could have garnered a little respect by explaining a pistol carried in condition 3 is just an inefficient club. Or maybe you could have told him what a poor choice of staging areas he seemed to select for his weapon. A gun in the cup holder invites your witnessing it skedaddle out of reach just when you find you need it in your hand the most. A good secure place capable of retaining your weapon, in an accident, is needed in order to assure the grip comes to hand if it is ever needed. And we need not even get in to how fool hardy trying to chamber a round, when the fear is starting to affect you. An ND looms large in those moments.


bcperry definitely needs more training,don't we all, but he proved his basic instincts are good, and his judgement sound. He is aware of his surroundings, observes the people around him. He was fearful and nervous but never seemed to panic. Some good training and a lot of practice, he will become comfortable with his weapon, he will come to believe, way down deep, that the gun will never fire all by it self, and in his heart he will come to know that, that gun will not fire until he pulls the trigger, and he will not pull that trigger unless he means to shoot something.

You train and practice with your carry weapon, you'll get comfortable with it. You got stones bcperry, don't let anyone tell you different. I'd ride the river with you anytime.:thumbsup:

[Robar]

It sounds to me like you have some irrational fear issues. Scared people with guns are worse than the criminals. Scared people shoot because they don't know what to do in a situation usualy killing someone because they were incapable of handling/ thinking through a situation. Criminals know exactly why they are shooting at some one. Go see a shrink talk about whatever happened in your past to make you so afraid of "2 scary looking guys, and a car full of teenagers" and put your gun back in the top of your closet .

I am not a bleeding heart liberal FYI. I am a SSgt in the USAF. I own a small armory of weapons. I was a competitive .22 cal rifle marksman on my high schools' FFA team and placed 4th in the state of NC in 1996 (before columbine scools were allowed to have rifle, skeet/trap, and archery teams).

I just can't stand people who walk arround with the ability to end some ones life straped to their hip and will use it because they don't want to loose their wallet.

F it take my wallet I can get a new one (don't need to kill that guy pheewww that was close!).

F it throw a plastic bottle at my Jeep because you are most likely drunk and young (don't need to kill that guy pheewww that was close!).

OMG those guys are "SCARY LOOKING" :eek2:(?????..... grow a pair! don't need to kill those guys pheewww that was close!).


For a person with such an itchy trigger finger you must have seen the movie Shoot-em Up. I want you to try and recall the hero's tagline. I would type it but the admins would bann me for the profanity.

And remember if you shoot "2 scarry looking guys" for being scary looking you are the criminal and society WILL execute YOU!

See you at the range.

Wow!

DZNTS's Blurbs About me:
I have no moral hang-ups about killng, death and destruction so please no shit about any of it.
Are you talking about the kind of shit you gave bcperry2000?

[yetibear]

Wow!

Are you talking about the kind of shit you gave bcperry2000?

:rotflmao2::rotflmao2::rotflmao2:I think you made me wet myself.:rotflmao2::rotflmao2::rotflmao2:

[bcperry2000]

hahahaha, wow i just got caught up and can't believe DZNTS comments. first of all, thanks to Yetibear and Robar for backing me up. i appreciate and agree with your comments. :thumbsup:

as to DZNTS....wow. you must have had a troubled life or something. being in the AF i'm a little disappointed in your comments. both of my parents are retired AF (Master SGT and Major since we're throwing ranks for some reason???) of 20+ years and neither would agree with you and be extremely disappointed in your statements. you say you're not a bleeding heart liberal but you sure sound like one.

i'd be curious as to what your small "arsenal" really is since you pointed this out as well. and to tout your shooting skills as well? who does that???? :crazyeyes: and to tout your shooting skills in the state of NC???? that's like saying you were the top rated snow skiier in FL.

please, please show me statistics where armed citizens are more of an issue than criminals. you won't find any. so you are just making bogus assumptions.

do i look at people and assess them? yes
if someone looks fishy or out of place do i watch them? yes
if that someone threatens my life or my family's life will i use deadly force. h3!! yes


i can't believe you can actually say these things though. truly shows your ignorance. to imply that i have no b@lls because i carry a gun is just ignorant. you'll continue to think this way until something (god forbid) happens to you.

[sandman]

WOW, I was going to put my 2 cents worth in but it looks like my feelings about a certain person's ranting have been said. Sure hope DZNTS never has to protect himself or others..
And there is alwasy one in the chamber otherwise the weapon is not loaded.

[spencenaz]

So yesterday I had to work late until about 12:45am. I live close to downtown Dallas so am going south on 75. I exit Mockingbird as usual and the first thought that pops into my head is the possibilty of a homeless person being on the corner.

Normally, this would not bother me. BUT, I have the top and doors off and it's close to 1am. Homeless people can be mentally ill sometimes so I'm wary of them when I'm exposed. So I pull up to the light and to my left is a guy on a bike with his girlfriend. Behind them is a car full of highschool/college kids. To my right are 2 scary looking guys. In the middle of the day this would not have scared me as much, but I've seen enough episodes of Cops and First 48 to know that Dallas is dangerous at night. I have my Kel-Tec P3AT wedged between my seat and the console. I felt very nervous so I slowly reach down and load one in the chamber. I never carry one in the chamber because I am so paranoid about an accidental discharge. This is probably my mistake, but I still haven't grown comfortable with the idea of carrying loaded. Especially relying on the long trigger pull as the only safety. Anyway, regardless....

So I put one in the chamber, place it in my cup holder and pray for the light to turn. In the meantime, the car of highschool/college kids have lowered all their windows and started heckling the couple next to me. Whistling and yelling. I don't turn and look for fear that they'll start on me.

Well, light turns green and I turn left along with the car of punks. The scary guys on the right of me go straight so they're no longer an issue. As I'm making the turn I see a kid throw his plastic bottle at me. Misses and hits the back of my jeep. I still try to avoid eye contact and act as if I dont even notice. At this point I'm sweating and really nervous. I'm trying to drive slower so they'll just pass me, but they make it a point to stay right with me, heckling me the entire time. Calling me all kinds of names, etc. So I speed up to get away from them and they pull in behind me right on my tail. Honking and flashing, I think they were trying to get me to pull over into the parking lot on our right and start something. So I keep driving and eventually they do turn into the empty parking lot. I continue home, unload my gun, and do my best to sleep.

Even this morning I'm still a little shaken up. I've never been so afraid for my life. They didnt physically harm me or anything so I did not feel justified in exposing my weapon. Maybe it's all the Cops and First 48 I've been watching, but I am scared to try driving at night with the top and doors off now. I'm also reconsidering my carrying style of not keeping one in the chamber. I feel like if something were to have happened last night, my weapon would have been worthless had I not loaded one. So I'm thinking I may start looking at a new CCW that has some safety features that I'm comfortable enough with to start carrying loaded (besides a long trigger pull). Any suggestions?

Sounds to me like you handled yourself alright.

I think you can work yourself up watching too much crime TV. But, it does teach you to be aware of your surroundings.

The AF guy is full of crap, or himself, or both. Besides those guys don't get a millisecond of TACTICAL firearms training anyway. Shooting an M-16 on the range a couple time a year doesn't count as tactical training. He probably would shat himself if faced with a real threat.

As for carrying locked and loaded. That is a tough call as a general question because there are too many variables. I have been a CCW holder in various states for a bunch of years. When I am in a state where I have a CCW or a state that has reciprocity, I always have my weapon locked and loaded. If I am in a state where my CCW doesn't apply like California, I never do. I feel uncomfortable to say the least when I don't have it loaded. But, it is not an easy decision when you run the risk of a serious run in with the law. A simple traffic offense in CA could become big trouble in a bug hurry.

I also have a weapon that allows me to safely carry chambered (H&K USP Compact). You can't say that about every handgun. My first carry gun (CZ75B) wasn't as safe to carry loaded, and I did not carry it that way as often.

You are going to find a lot of folks that will tell you to carry chambered, and perhaps a few that tell you not to. But, it really comes down to what YOU feel comfortable doing. Comfortable in terms of safety, legality, peace of mind, etc.

The best advice is to get training-training-training, and practice-practice-practice. Nothing will help you more than the confidence that training and practice will give you.

Have good equipment. If you don't feel safe carrying a handgun loaded you might have the wrong handgun. Try something with a de-cocker or a DAO. A lot of ranges rent guns. Try some different ones out. Even if you really like the one you currently carry. You might find something you like even more.

[Jose Dosil]

i'd be curious as to what your small "arsenal" really is since you pointed this out as well. and to tout your shooting skills as well? who does that???? :crazyeyes: and to tout your shooting skills in the state of NC???? that's like saying you were the top rated snow skiier in FL.

Leave Us Floridians alone :rotflmao2: You did the right thing.I also carry a Weapon in all my vehicles and in my Home.I dont have extensive training with them,but I know how to use them and I will,If my or my Families life depended on it.Its coments like DZNTS made that get people in trouble.If he acts like that on the JEEP Forum I can just Imagine how he is in real Life. I am not one to show my Firearm in anger,I always say the day it comes out,It will be used!
The world is a scary place and anybodies life can be threatened @ anytime.I beleive you handled yourself very well and did the right thing :thumbsup::thumbsup:

[yetibear]

I also have a weapon that allows me to safely carry chambered (H&K USP Compact). You can't say that about every handgun. My first carry gun (CZ75B) wasn't as safe to carry loaded, and I did not carry it that way as often.


This is not meant to be argumentative, but:

Being not totally unfamiliar with handguns; I have shot both the CZ 75 and the USP, I know a couple of people that carry the CZ, and no one that carries the USP(not a reflection on the USP, I just don't know anyone that carries one, that is ALL I mean by that). Other than my desire to own one of every gun ever manufactured :ya:(a goal I am hopelessly behind schedule of ever fulfilling:crazyeyes:), I have no real interest in either one, so other than casual contact, and a few gun rag articles, I am not that well aquatinted with them.

<deep breath>

Now my main carry gun is a 70 Series 1911 cocked and locked. This 1911 is way past the point where it'$ value demands it's retirement as a carry weapon(but then I know a guy who still carries an original SSA Colt revolver, so go figure), and I'm slowly transitioning to a SIG 226(but I see a 220 in the near future:ya:I prefer a .45:synister:). Right now, for me, I find the cocked and locked Colt 1911 safer to carry then the SIG. The Colt has been my companion for years, I know it's manual of arms - cold, everything falls into hand perfectly every time. The SIG is........:dontknow2:not naturally familar, yet. So, in terms of, an ND/AD for me, the Colt is the safer pistol to carry.

<pause>

What can I say, it's a cruddy rainy day, I need to entertain myself, that is why a simple question is taking me for ever to actually ask.:thinking:

<unpause>


Now here is the question:

Is there some design flaw in the CZ 75B that causes you to call it's safety into question? Or is it the design, or some feature of the H&K that makes you feel carrying it makes you less likely to bust a cap when you don't mean to?
IS there something actually wrong with the CZ, or is it the H&K is just 'more right' for YOU?

That's all, just wondering, and bored, and feeling 'gunny' more then 'jeepy' today.:yup: Think I'll go sniff the 'Origonal Scent' Hoppe's:eek2:maybe get some chinee?:bleh:

[bcperry2000]

Sounds to me like you handled yourself alright.

I think you can work yourself up watching too much crime TV. But, it does teach you to be aware of your surroundings.

The AF guy is full of crap, or himself, or both. Besides those guys don't get a millisecond of TACTICAL firearms training anyway. Shooting an M-16 on the range a couple time a year doesn't count as tactical training. He probably would shat himself if faced with a real threat.

As for carrying locked and loaded. That is a tough call as a general question because there are too many variables. I have been a CCW holder in various states for a bunch of years. When I am in a state where I have a CCW or a state that has reciprocity, I always have my weapon locked and loaded. If I am in a state where my CCW doesn't apply like California, I never do. I feel uncomfortable to say the least when I don't have it loaded. But, it is not an easy decision when you run the risk of a serious run in with the law. A simple traffic offense in CA could become big trouble in a bug hurry.

I also have a weapon that allows me to safely carry chambered (H&K USP Compact). You can't say that about every handgun. My first carry gun (CZ75B) wasn't as safe to carry loaded, and I did not carry it that way as often.

You are going to find a lot of folks that will tell you to carry chambered, and perhaps a few that tell you not to. But, it really comes down to what YOU feel comfortable doing. Comfortable in terms of safety, legality, peace of mind, etc.

The best advice is to get training-training-training, and practice-practice-practice. Nothing will help you more than the confidence that training and practice will give you.

Have good equipment. If you don't feel safe carrying a handgun loaded you might have the wrong handgun. Try something with a de-cocker or a DAO. A lot of ranges rent guns. Try some different ones out. Even if you really like the one you currently carry. You might find something you like even more.


well, i purchased an XD9 SC for carrying one in the chamber. i did alot of research and found the XD to have more safety features than most guns (trigger safety, firing pin block, grip safety, loaded chamber indicator). on top of that, the XD has proven to be reliable and durable (20,000 round test was interesting). i have been carry the XD9 SC for a few weeks now with one in the chamber and i feel much more confident in this weapon.

also, at the suggestion of several people on jk-forum and texaschlforum, i will be taking the next defensive handgun training class i can find. the CHL class is fine, but does not cover the topics that the defensive handgun class will.

i still have and carry the P3AT when i have too. and lets face it....it's 100 degrees in TX right now so i've been carrying it in shorts and t-shirt more than a few times :) kel-tecs seem to have questionable reliablility. i have had a few issues with my kel-tecs but will soon be moving to a Ruger LCP once those have all the kinks worked out. i carry the P3AT in a pocket holster but do not keep it chambered. something about the small size and cheap feeling of the gun that i don't trust.

[bcperry2000]

i'd be curious as to what your small "arsenal" really is since you pointed this out as well. and to tout your shooting skills as well? who does that???? :crazyeyes: and to tout your shooting skills in the state of NC???? that's like saying you were the top rated snow skiier in FL.

Leave Us Floridians alone :rotflmao2: You did the right thing.I also carry a Weapon in all my vehicles and in my Home.I dont have extensive training with them,but I know how to use them and I will,If my or my Families life depended on it.Its coments like DZNTS made that get people in trouble.If he acts like that on the JEEP Forum I can just Imagine how he is in real Life. I am not one to show my Firearm in anger,I always say the day it comes out,It will be used!
The world is a scary place and anybodies life can be threatened @ anytime.I beleive you handled yourself very well and did the right thing :thumbsup::thumbsup:

sorry, i guess i could have said TX....oh yeah, did i mention that in highschool i was the #1 skiier in TX?? :)

i can't agree more with the following statement:

"I am not one to show my Firearm in anger,I always say the day it comes out,It will be used!"

[spencenaz]

Now here is the question:

Is there some design flaw in the CZ 75B that causes you to call it's safety into question? Or is it the design, or some feature of the H&K that makes you feel carrying it makes you less likely to bust a cap when you don't mean to?
IS there something actually wrong with the CZ, or is it the H&K is just 'more right' for YOU?

That's all, just wondering, and bored, and feeling 'gunny' more then 'jeepy' today.:yup: Think I'll go sniff the 'Origonal Scent' Hoppe's:eek2:maybe get some chinee?:bleh:


I absolutely love my CZ75, so I would certainly never trash it as a carry gun. But, the standard model requires you to either leave it cocked in SA and use the safety only or drop the hammer manually. Newer versions have decockers, but mine does not. I like DA/SA with a decocker for carrying like the USP (and lots of others). It's a personal preference on my part. I have three "carry" guns. One DAO, one DA/SA without a decocker, and a DA/SA with the decoker. Of those the latter is my favorite. But, all three are safe guns for carry.

I never felt completely comfortable manually dropping the hammer on the 75. Even though I've done it a hundred times without a problem. Decocker for me just brings peace of mind that I will never accidentally shoot my bedroom floor, or the floor of my JK.

[spencenaz]

well, i purchased an XD9 SC for carrying one in the chamber. i did alot of research and found the XD to have more safety features than most guns (trigger safety, firing pin block, grip safety, loaded chamber indicator). on top of that, the XD has proven to be reliable and durable (20,000 round test was interesting). i have been carry the XD9 SC for a few weeks now with one in the chamber and i feel much more confident in this weapon.

also, at the suggestion of several people on jk-forum and texaschlforum, i will be taking the next defensive handgun training class i can find. the CHL class is fine, but does not cover the topics that the defensive handgun class will.

i still have and carry the P3AT when i have too. and lets face it....it's 100 degrees in TX right now so i've been carrying it in shorts and t-shirt more than a few times :) kel-tecs seem to have questionable reliablility. i have had a few issues with my kel-tecs but will soon be moving to a Ruger LCP once those have all the kinks worked out. i carry the P3AT in a pocket holster but do not keep it chambered. something about the small size and cheap feeling of the gun that i don't trust.

The XD9 SC is a fine choice for a carry gun. I would have no issues from an equipment standpoint carrying that locked and loaded.

[Gypsy]

Oh my. Some days I'm glad I live in Canada. I've been trained with a semi-automatic and I'm happy to admit that holding that thing scared the living daylights out of me. To be able to cause such damage to a person ... I cannot imagine driving around with "one in the chamber".

[EmbarkChief]

... I cannot imagine driving around with "one in the chamber".

I can't imagine.....Not. I excersize my right to do so every day. There are maybe 10-15 days in an average year that I don't carry.

[JackMac4]

I too keep a loaded firearm in my jeep. The only time its not there is when the doors are off, then I usually keep it on my person. Sometime I'll just leave it home...I keep a gun for protection, not because I'm paranoid. I typically have one in the chamber ready to fire. Guns don't accidentally fire, people do.

[bcperry2000]

Oh my. Some days I'm glad I live in Canada. I've been trained with a semi-automatic and I'm happy to admit that holding that thing scared the living daylights out of me. To be able to cause such damage to a person ... I cannot imagine driving around with "one in the chamber".

you do realize that your vehicle causes damage to people right? car wrecks, pollution, etc.

just some food for thought. in Texas you can legally drive with alcohol in your system as long as you are below the legal limit. but you cannot carry a gun if you've had one drop of alcohol.

[Gypsy]

you do realize that your vehicle causes damage to people right? car wrecks, pollution, etc.

just some food for thought. in Texas you can legally drive with alcohol in your system as long as you are below the legal limit. but you cannot carry a gun if you've had one drop of alcohol.

Riiiggght. Actually, my vehicle can cause damage to people (pollution, really? you're comparing that to a gun?) if in an accident but it also has other uses. Primary uses. Like driving.

Handguns have no other purpose than to shoot people. And it doesn't sit well with me that anyone who is licensed can carry one loaded and concealed. And I certainly wouldn't want to carry one, having seen first hand the damage they can accidentally do. That's all. Different countries, different opinions.

[bcperry2000]

Handguns have no other purpose than to shoot people. And it doesn't sit well with me that anyone who is licensed can carry one loaded and concealed. And I certainly wouldn't want to carry one, having seen first hand the damage they can accidentally do. That's all. Different countries, different opinions.

Umm, that's like saying the primary purpose of knives is to stab people.....or the primary purpose of martial arts is for beating people up....



People in the US use handguns for:

Personal protection - Doesn't necessarily mean you own one to shoot people. It's the same thinking behind carrying a knife or taking self-defense classes. You don't ever want to be in a situation where you need them, but at least you're prepared.

Hunting - Yes, people do hunt with handguns. Or people carry handguns while they're hunting to protect themselves against dangerous animals. Again, not shooting people.

Sport shooting - Yes there are a whole lot of people that shoot paper targets. And a whole lot of people that do competitions with handguns. They don't shoot people in those competitions do they?



Since handguns are for shooting people only, what are rifles and shotguns used for? What's the difference in me carrying a handgun concealed and a rifle/shotgun in the passenger seat?


That being said, I'm sticking to my guns (no pun intended).....Guns don't kill people, knives don't kill people, even hockey sticks don't kill people. People kill people.

[Gypsy]

Look, I'm not sure why you're getting so angry - its not something I came up with, our Supreme Court has taken that position. Which is why handguns remain prohibited in Canada.

I just don't agree with your arguments but I recogize that we come from very different places. Knives have their place, martial arts has their place. Guns? Well, that we will disagree on. The idea of carrying a gun (even a shot gun in the passenger seat) it pretty foreign to me, even coming from training and a family of hunters.

Oh, and I completely agree with your final statement. People kill people. That's why I don't think they need guns to make it easier. :)

ETA: Oh, and I just realized that this post is in the "hunting and firearm" section. Didn't realize there was such a thing. So, I'll stop being such a buzz kill and head on out to other sections. :)

[bcperry2000]

Look, I'm not sure why you're getting so angry - its not something I came up with, our Supreme Court has taken that position. Which is why handguns remain prohibited in Canada.

I just don't agree with your arguments but I recogize that we come from very different places. Knives have their place, martial arts has their place. Guns? Well, that we will disagree on. The idea of carrying a gun (even a shot gun in the passenger seat) it pretty foreign to me, even coming from training and a family of hunters.

Oh, and I completely agree with your final statement. People kill people. That's why I don't think they need guns to make it easier. :)

ETA: Oh, and I just realized that this post is in the "hunting and firearm" section. Didn't realize there was such a thing. So, I'll stop being such a buzz kill and head on out to other sections. :)

I'm not angry, I just don't agree with you. But that's fine. We'll agree to disagree.

I just hate it when anti-gun people make comments that aren't true, like:

"Handguns have no other purpose than to shoot people"

[Gypsy]

I'm not angry, I just don't agree with you. But that's fine. We'll agree to disagree.

I just hate it when anti-gun people make comments that aren't true, like:

"Handguns have no other purpose than to shoot people"

Like you said, we'll agree to disagree. I think "truth" can be a very relative thing.

[spencenaz]

Like you said, we'll agree to disagree. I think "truth" can be a very relative thing.

:what?: It's not a "truth" it's called an opinion. As they say in this country "You are entitled to you own opinion. But, you are not entitled to your own facts."

If "Handguns have no other purpose than to shoot people." why are there handgun shooting events in the Olympic Games? They don't shoot people. Are they just practicing to shoot people? And there are even Canadians participating in that sport. Like Avianna Chao for example. Surely she's not going around Canada shooting people. Wouldn't they lock her up in jail for doing that? Isn't that illegal in Canada? :thinking:

The IPSC (International Practical Shooting Confederation) is based in Ontario Canada. It is the governing body for international target shooting competitions around the world. Where believe it or not they shoot at paper targets instead of people. :eek2:

Why would anyone make hunting ammunition for handguns since there is no place where hunting of people is allowed? :dontknow2:

Look, you are entitled to your opinions about handguns. But, the facts are that there are other purposes for handguns than just shooting people.

[fish]

well said spence

[yetibear]

Handguns have no other purpose than to shoot people. And it doesn't sit well with me that anyone who is licensed can carry one loaded and concealed.

Only purpose is to shoot people? Dang, all mine must be defective!

And wow, I bet you couldn't sit here in Vermont at all, we don't need a permit to carry concealed, or openly. I prefer open, it's much more liberating:eek2:, kinda like going commando.:brows::brows:
Funny thing is gun crime is virtually unheard of here.

Remember, in the words of Robert A. Heinlein "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."

[Rubimon]

Another option to handle the teenagers!:synister:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVsFKbxKvBg


..

[Gypsy]

:what?: It's not a "truth" it's called an opinion. As they say in this country "You are entitled to you own opinion. But, you are not entitled to your own facts."

If "Handguns have no other purpose than to shoot people." why are there handgun shooting events in the Olympic Games? They don't shoot people. Are they just practicing to shoot people? And there are even Canadians participating in that sport. Like Avianna Chao for example. Surely she's not going around Canada shooting people. Wouldn't they lock her up in jail for doing that? Isn't that illegal in Canada? :thinking:

The IPSC (International Practical Shooting Confederation) is based in Ontario Canada. It is the governing body for international target shooting competitions around the world. Where believe it or not they shoot at paper targets instead of people. :eek2:

Why would anyone make hunting ammunition for handguns since there is no place where hunting of people is allowed? :dontknow2:

Look, you are entitled to your opinions about handguns. But, the facts are that there are other purposes for handguns than just shooting people.


I was not at all trying to say that my OPINION was the truth or facts. I was commenting on someone else's reference to their OPINION as truth. That's all. I could easily start flinging up statistics that support my OPINION but at the end of the day, the reality is that we all have different opinions on this subject that are very much influenced by where we live and, in my case, the job I do and the experiences I have had. I will be the first to admit that I would probably be a lot more comfortable carrying if I was raised in a place where it was common place. I'm not making a judgment call, I was initially talking about my own comfort level. And a realization of how foreign a concept it is to me. That's it.

With respect to the comment made by our Court regarding the purpose of handguns, I believe it was made (or I accept it) in the context of carrying in an everyday environment. I think there are few people in urban Canada who will head out to hunt on their way to work. Certainly there are those in rual areas that will do that and that is a different thing all together.

I am well aware of the target shooting clubs that currently exist. I say currently because our local gov't is trying to pass legislation to ban those as well. And even for those who target shoot in Canada, you are not allowed to carry your weapon on you when traveling to and from. Nor is it allowed to be loaded.

I think I have repeatedly attempted to limit this to what I feel. But heaven forbid someone have a differing opinion.

[HappyCurmudgeon]

Well, i no longer get paid to shoot at people, so I go to the range as often as I can and instead shoot paper people.*L*

And yes, i think target practice is a fun pastime.



I know people have different opinions on this. That's fine with me, I'll respect yours if you respect mine, but dont force them on me in the form of idiotic, inane, useless legislation that only benefits a criminal, and I wont say boo about it. I think that is about as fair as I can be about it.


No lets go Jeepin' :thumbsup:

[bcperry2000]

I was not at all trying to say that my OPINION was the truth or facts. I was commenting on someone else's reference to their OPINION as truth. That's all. I could easily start flinging up statistics that support my OPINION but at the end of the day, the reality is that we all have different opinions on this subject that are very much influenced by where we live and, in my case, the job I do and the experiences I have had. I will be the first to admit that I would probably be a lot more comfortable carrying if I was raised in a place where it was common place. I'm not making a judgment call, I was initially talking about my own comfort level. And a realization of how foreign a concept it is to me. That's it.




Gypsy, believe it or not I had a simliar opinion as you on handguns a few years ago. I never really understood the purpose of them (other than a hobby or for military/law enforcement) or why on earth I would ever want to carry one. Then I moved to the big city....Dallas.

Big cities can be wonderful places. But they can also be extremely dangerous. It wasn't until I noticed shootings every night on the news. Everyday in the newspaper. Cops and First 48 were constantly filming in the DFW area. And alot of shootings here are meaningless. It's not a drug deal gone bad or happening at clubs/bars. It's happening everywhere and innocent people are being killed. I realized that I was a sitting duck for criminals. Now in situations where I would have normally been helpless, I have the means to protect myself and my family.

I hope to God that I never have to use my weapon, but lets face it....you can't depend on police to protect 100% of the time. Cops, just like Batman :), can't be everywhere all the time.

[Gypsy]

Well, i no longer get paid to shoot at people, so I go to the range as often as I can and instead shoot paper people.*L*

And yes, i think target practice is a fun pastime.



I know people have different opinions on this. That's fine with me, I'll respect yours if you respect mine, but dont force them on me in the form of idiotic, inane, useless legislation that only benefits a criminal, and I wont say boo about it. I think that is about as fair as I can be about it.


No lets go Jeepin' :thumbsup:

God help the person that lets me draft legislation so I don't think you have to worry about it. :)

And I'll always be super proud of what a good shot I am. I just won't brag about the fact that my hands were shaking as I took off that paper head. ;)

[dyolfknip]

Gypsy, believe it or not I had a simliar opinion as you on handguns a few years ago. I never really understood the purpose of them (other than a hobby or for military/law enforcement) or why on earth I would ever want to carry one. Then I moved to the big city....Dallas.

Big cities can be wonderful places. But they can also be extremely dangerous. It wasn't until I noticed shootings every night on the news. Everyday in the newspaper. Cops and First 48 were constantly filming in the DFW area. And alot of shootings here are meaningless. It's not a drug deal gone bad or happening at clubs/bars. It's happening everywhere and innocent people are being killed. I realized that I was a sitting duck for criminals. Now in situations where I would have normally been helpless, I have the means to protect myself and my family.

I hope to God that I never have to use my weapon, but lets face it....you can't depend on police to protect 100% of the time. Cops, just like Batman :), can't be everywhere all the time.


I think one of things being forgotten here is that here in Canada we dont have a lot of the violence the States has (notwithstanding the direction Toronto is heading) So the whole "big city" issue, doesnt really apply here. I have been around weapons my whole career in the military, but when I drove to Florida this past January and saw people walking into a Wendys with a holster, I was still "WTF?" You just dont see that here. As a matter of fact I have lived here in Kingston a total of close to 5 years, and for the life of me cant remember when there was even a handgun offence nevermind a shooting. We have about 115000 here in town so it isnt some tiny town.
Dont get me wrong it isnt all Care Bears and unicorns up here, but we definitely dont see the violence you guys see.

My biggest issue about the whole hand gun thing is how easy it is to get one down there. As far as I understand it, as long as your record is clean and you wait your 7 days you can own one right? I dont know about Americans but I know there are Canadians who have clean records and shouldnt be allowed to take a bus nevermind own a gun.
What is the solution though? What we have here? What they have in England? What you guys have? I dont know.
I do know however that I can drive in pretty much ANY Canadian city with my doors off and roof down and the biggest thing I have to worry about is a polar bear attack or running into an igloo (that is a joke FYI, basically nothing to worry about) That is a great feeling. When I first read the OP, I was like, man I felt like that in Kosovo, it would suck to feel like that in my hometown. :naw:

[Gypsy]

Oh sure, NOW you come in here Todd. NOW after we've all kissed and made up. Where were you when I was under...uh.... fire? ;)

Care bears and unicorns indeed. :)

[yetibear]

Analogies are imprecise at best, but I'm going to try. If a carpenter builds a really great house his hammer and circular saw don't get the credit, neither the saw or hammer could build the house without the carpenter, but the carpenter could build the house without them.

A gun is a tool, load the gun and set it on a table, if left undisturbed, 100 years from now that gun will be right where you left it. It cannot and will not commit a crime on it's own. A criminal can and will commit crimes, without a gun he will just use a different tool. It is intellectually dishonest to blame a hunk of steal for the actions of the human holding it.

dyolfknip, I'm sure you realize we really do have a strong gun culture here. You know people you wouldn't let take a bus yet could buy a gun here. We try to look at it as, a free society does not deprive a man of his rights because of something he MIGHT do. And that is why most gun control debates turn ugly. We already have laws the say if someone has demonstrated, by their actions, that they should not own a gun, then they can't. Most gun control laws, passed that, are trying to prevent actions that may happen, you can't legislate the future without trampling on the present.

Don't take my U.S. slanted view as a jab at Canada. I'm not saying that Canadians are any less free then we in the US are, our measures of that freedom may just be a little different. As close, in distance, our nations may be, our cultures do have differences, my views only apply here, I'm not trying to tell you you're a nation of slaves because you put different values, and use different measurements of freedom. And Gypsy, understand, gun control debates are like Catholic Bishops discussing abortion with the Board of Directors of Planned Parenthood. Both sides know the other one is completely wrong and aren't going to listen to the other, we just hope the undecideds will side with the ones that are truly correct, us. It becomes a debate, not a discussion. So be gentle with us, if you want to really discuss the subject, we will, just be aware that most of the time we are debating with people who have no more real interest in listening to our views than we do in listening to theirs. So if we get a little strident in shouting you down, just remind us that you are really trying to understand our views, and we will tone down a little and get back to discussing with you instead of debating you. Subtle differences, I know, but it does set the tone of the conversation.

[dyolfknip]

Oh sure, NOW you come in here Todd. NOW after we've all kissed and made up. Where were you when I was under...uh.... fire? ;)

Care bears and unicorns indeed. :)

Sorry dear....I didnt actually notice it was you until after I had posted, otherwise I would have been like the President of the NRA with you ;)

[Gypsy]

And Gypsy, understand, gun control debates are like Catholic Bishops discussing abortion with the Board of Directors of Planned Parenthood. Both sides know the other one is completely wrong and aren't going to listen to the other, we just hope the undecideds will side with the ones that are truly correct, us. It becomes a debate, not a discussion. So be gentle with us, if you want to really discuss the subject, we will, just be aware that most of the time we are debating with people who have no more real interest in listening to our views than we do in listening to theirs. So if we get a little strident in shouting you down, just remind us that you are really trying to understand our views, and we will tone down a little and get back to discussing with you instead of debating you. Subtle differences, I know, but it does set the tone of the conversation.

Well, I was contemplating sticking my fingers in my ears and singing at one point but it doesn't translate so well on the internet.... ;)

But honestly, it is foreign and it is something I wrestle with continually. So it is interesting to understand the opposing position beyond the whole "out of my cold dead hands..." business. And it is interesting how something so alien to me can be so common place elsewhere.

I have difficulty with the levels of freedom. I believe in freedom of the individual. That is where I struggle the most. However, on the other hand, I believe that guns are inherently dangerous things and while I absolutely agree that, in most cases, they are a weapon of opportunity and would be substituted for something else, I also think that guns make serious injury more possible for the common criminal. For example, knives are personal weapons. The offender must get up close and personal, must make a decision and use an excessive amount of force and a moderate amount of time to achieve his end. Very different from the split second decision to fire a gun.

There are other circumstances like the ones I have personally dealt with where a six year old knocked his father's gun off the table and shot himself. A hunter who ran into his tent (shack? whatever you people sleep in ;) ) because he was excited having just seen a female moose (can you tell I don't hunt yet?) jumped on his buddy in his sleeping bag, shot gun in hand and shot him. A husband, angered by seeing his wife in bed with another man goes to the gun cabinet, gets his gun and shoots them both.

But then, these are freak accidents.... I think that I firmly come down on the side that preventing such situations are more important than a person's right to carry a weapon. But that doesn't mean that I am rabid about my view, nor am I trying to impose it on someone else. I am very interested in hearing the other side. It keeps me open.

Oh, and Todd, we'll just agree that I'm obviously the tougher one and get on with it, ok? :D

[Winyah]

A couple of thoughts on the original situation:

First - Have you seen those decals - "Insured by S&W" ...Ruger, etc. On cars and trucks. I have not gotten one yet, but plan on it. It ought to work like those home security signs. So to the punk, If you're looking for fun, find an easier target. Also, You gotta love those Yosimity (sp) Sam "Back Off" mud flaps. Remember what he is holding?. I dont plan on getting those, but they do look cool.

Second - I have actually placed my empty holster on the dash in plain sight once in a similar situation. I wanted to communicate that - I am ready...dont mess w/ me. I think it should help protect you legally, because it is not a threat. And, it would be more difficult for a punk to say they saw a gun and really be able to back that up.... So was that a revolver or auto? Short or long barrel? Nickel or blued? Pearl handle? etc....

Any Thoughts?

[GreytSilly]

I'm going to chime in here. Gypsy and I have had an ongoing discussion about trying to convert a soft top to a Sunrider so we are not complete strangers. Here is my opinion, it is only my opinion, I don't intend this to be a presentation of facts and figures. I've carried for 30 years, my wife has had her CCW for about 10 years. We shoot a lot at the range, we go through 5000 rounds every year. Do we carry? Absolutely. Why? Because the world is full of bad people. Criminals by definition defy the law. Whenever I read about some whack job that walks into a fast food joint or gets on a train and starts shooting innocent people I think to myself, "Man, if someone there had only had a CCW and was carrying, so many lives would have been saved". Now people are going to say if we ban the guns this won't happen any more. Rubbish, bad guys will always find a way to get guns. Look at the Washington DC debacle. Handguns were banned for the law abiding citizen yet the murder rate in DC climbed astronomically when the ban was enacted. Britain has banned handguns and their violent crime rate has gone sky high. Australia has banned handguns and their crome rate has gone through the roof too. There are now I believe 38 states allowing CCW. In EVERY ONE OF THOSE STATES, across the board without exception, the violent crime rate went down when the CCW laws were passed. The bad guys no longer can prey on unarmed law abiding citizens. They no longer know that the people they intend to prey upon won't be able to defend themselves. I've had discussions with people who say, what are you, expecting trouble? I then ask them if the have a fire extinguisher home and if so, are they expecting their house to burn?

Now, do we shoot? Yes, we shoot weekly at our club range. We shoot steel plates, it is wonderful entertainment. We get 15 to 20 people at the range, we stress safety, and everyone has a grand time. The club also has a paper bullseye league that shoots weekly. I'm not much on paper shooting anymore. Since going to steel I've come to enjoy the "Something should happen when I hit my target" train of thought. Paper doesn't do that for me. My wife also shoots weekly at steel and enjoys it immensely. It gives us one night a week where we can get out together and we have an activity we both enjoy and we get to visit with friends as a bonus. If you are a stranger to the shooting sports, find someone who participates and ask if you can try it. Once you get past the "I'm too scared to shoot a gun" thinking, you may find you really do enjoy it. There are a vast number of different types of sport shooting events from rifle, shotgun, to pistols. As the old advertisement used to say "Try it, you'll like it". Okay, I'm done. Here is the wife on the steel plate range last winter.

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h113/GreytSilly/PICT0080.jpg

[bcperry2000]

A couple of thoughts on the original situation:

First - Have you seen those decals - "Insured by S&W" ...Ruger, etc. On cars and trucks. I have not gotten one yet, but plan on it. It ought to work like those home security signs. So to the punk, If you're looking for fun, find an easier target. Also, You gotta love those Yosimity (sp) Sam "Back Off" mud flaps. Remember what he is holding?. I dont plan on getting those, but they do look cool.

Second - I have actually placed my empty holster on the dash in plain sight once in a similar situation. I wanted to communicate that - I am ready...dont mess w/ me. I think it should help protect you legally, because it is not a threat. And, it would be more difficult for a punk to say they saw a gun and really be able to back that up.... So was that a revolver or auto? Short or long barrel? Nickel or blued? Pearl handle? etc....

Any Thoughts?

Shepherda, i have mixed feelings about this. i almost feel as if this could actually provoke people. but i guess it would have to be tested out before i could assume anything.

the sticker might provoke people to break into your Jeep in hopes of finding a gun they can pawn. that's why i've never put stickers on my vehicles. i always see those guys with stereo systems that have Rockford Fosgate or JL stickers and think it's just a target for thieves.

[spencenaz]

A couple of thoughts on the original situation:

First - Have you seen those decals - "Insured by S&W" ...Ruger, etc. On cars and trucks. I have not gotten one yet, but plan on it. It ought to work like those home security signs. So to the punk, If you're looking for fun, find an easier target. Also, You gotta love those Yosimity (sp) Sam "Back Off" mud flaps. Remember what he is holding?. I dont plan on getting those, but they do look cool.

Second - I have actually placed my empty holster on the dash in plain sight once in a similar situation. I wanted to communicate that - I am ready...dont mess w/ me. I think it should help protect you legally, because it is not a threat. And, it would be more difficult for a punk to say they saw a gun and really be able to back that up.... So was that a revolver or auto? Short or long barrel? Nickel or blued? Pearl handle? etc....

Any Thoughts?

Nothing good can come from either of those. Plus nothing says redneck like a bunch of catchy slogan gun stickers on your car. Why make yourself a target? It usually does not provide the deterrent it is intended to. Better to blend in and look unassuming in my opinion.

If you do happen to have to use your handgun to defend yourself, it will not look good in court when the prosecutor brings up the "Insured by S&W" decal on your vehicle. Only shows the jury that you are a bit of a loose cannon. Justified or not your life could easily be in a jury's hands if it gets that far. Not worth the risk.

[USAF_GroundRat]

I keep these on magnets so when I want to be more discrete I just take them off and slap them on the inside of the tailgate. I promise you it actually makes a huge difference on the punk ass tailgater level. I see a definate difference when I forget to put the stickers back. Some douchebags will actually come on on me all "billy badass" and back off bigtime when they start to read.

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n306/usaf_groundrat/Jeep/sticker_01.jpg

I also have this one on a magnet:
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n306/usaf_groundrat/carry1.jpg

[bcperry2000]

I think one of things being forgotten here is that here in Canada we dont have a lot of the violence the States has (notwithstanding the direction Toronto is heading) So the whole "big city" issue, doesnt really apply here. I have been around weapons my whole career in the military, but when I drove to Florida this past January and saw people walking into a Wendys with a holster, I was still "WTF?" You just dont see that here. As a matter of fact I have lived here in Kingston a total of close to 5 years, and for the life of me cant remember when there was even a handgun offence nevermind a shooting. We have about 115000 here in town so it isnt some tiny town.
Dont get me wrong it isnt all Care Bears and unicorns up here, but we definitely dont see the violence you guys see.

My biggest issue about the whole hand gun thing is how easy it is to get one down there. As far as I understand it, as long as your record is clean and you wait your 7 days you can own one right? I dont know about Americans but I know there are Canadians who have clean records and shouldnt be allowed to take a bus nevermind own a gun.
What is the solution though? What we have here? What they have in England? What you guys have? I dont know.
I do know however that I can drive in pretty much ANY Canadian city with my doors off and roof down and the biggest thing I have to worry about is a polar bear attack or running into an igloo (that is a joke FYI, basically nothing to worry about) That is a great feeling. When I first read the OP, I was like, man I felt like that in Kosovo, it would suck to feel like that in my hometown. :naw:



dyolfknip and gypsy,

this is why we carry guns. and this is in your neck of the woods.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/07/31/canada.bus/index.html


it can happen to anyone, anywhere, anytime

[dyolfknip]

dyolfknip and gypsy,

this is why we carry guns. and this is in your neck of the woods.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/07/31/canada.bus/index.html


it can happen to anyone, anywhere, anytime


How did I know this would be brought up?
I dont think a gun would have helped the passenger sleeping who was attacked, he didnt have much reaction time as far as I know. And after the attack the assailant was calm. He even "matter of fact" came and dropped the head at the front of the bus and got back on. So then what? Shoot him even though the threat was gone? I dont know. I do know that as a soldier, I have have what is called "rules of engagement" so that has to come into play for me also.
But yes we do have random acts of violence here in Canada, although I dont think carrying a gun in this situation would have helped one iota.

[Gypsy]

dyolfknip and gypsy,

this is why we carry guns. and this is in your neck of the woods.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/07/31/canada.bus/index.html


it can happen to anyone, anywhere, anytime


Just what you want, someone firing a gun off in a confined bus with a bunch of innocent people on it panicking.

Honestly, a gun would not have helped that poor boy, he was gone after the first stab. I think this is exactly the kind of situation that would have turned into a disaster had there been weapons on that bus.

Again, not wanting to get into the debate of gun control but that is an extremely bad example, I think.

[Robar]

dyolfknip and gypsy,

this is why we carry guns. and this is in your neck of the woods.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/07/31/canada.bus/index.html


it can happen to anyone, anywhere, anytime

Now that's messed up!

[yetibear]

But I don't get this part

" The suspect was seized with the help of negotiators, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Sgt. Steve Colwell said.

He said no formal charges had been filed, and he declined to identify either the man in custody or the victim, who were among 34 passengers."

I'll go along with a gun probably would not have done the victim much good, But good lord, if my seat mate on a Greyhound Bus, stabs me and lops my head off, I would hope someone officially charges him with at least unlawful possession of my head.:eek2::eek2:

[Gypsy]

Ah, you know, happens all the time up here in Canada because we don't carry. We can't prosecute EVERYONE who walks around with a head... ;)

Seriously though, they can hold him for a brief period of time before laying charges. Once they lay charges they have to make his name public so a number of things are happening right now. A) the local OPP are freaking out because they've never dealt with a murder before, much less something this gruesome and b) they are trying to investigate his background etc. as fast as possible before arresting him, naming him and the media mucking around.

[dyolfknip]

Ah, you know, happens all the time up here in Canada because we don't carry. We can't prosecute EVERYONE who walks around with a head... ;)

Seriously though, they can hold him for a brief period of time before laying charges. Once they lay charges they have to make his name public so a number of things are happening right now. A) the local OPP are freaking out because they've never dealt with a murder before, much less something this gruesome and b) they are trying to investigate his background etc. as fast as possible before arresting him, naming him and the media mucking around.

no OPP in Manitoba Gypsy, I think you meant RCMP ;)

...the details coming out are incredible. Now it is being said that after he dropped the head at the front of the bus he went and ATE some of the body.....wow...I am pretty sure he will be finger painting in his own feces in a rubber room for the rest of his natural life...either that or bunking with Paul Bernardo.

[bigbluejk]

I live in Texas and we could carry for years under that "travelling" clause, but that was never defined and some Joe Bob Bubba cop might decide to arrest you. Now we have a great thing called the Castle Law! It lets anyone in Texas that can legally own a handgun keep one in their vehicle. I think it is absolutely wonderful. We don't even have to worry about lawsuits for shooting people stealing our stuff. You can even shoot someone to protect your neighbors stuff. Come take my TV... I dare you! I bet money carjacking will go down over the next couple years here. You turn a couple theives into bullet sponges and word gets around.

BTW I carry a Glock model G21, and I always have one in the pipe. 14 rounds of +P+ .45 is enough that I rarely carry a second mag. It is a big gun, but I am 6'1 190lbs and I dont think it is too big to carry in the back of my pants. I use one of those thin nylon holsters that clips to my belt. In the summer I sometimes tote my keltec P32 full of fang faces.

I understand how you felt exposed top and doors off. God knows I have made some wrong turns in Dallas and been so glad I had a piece on me. I think that none of those situations called for showing your steel, not even close. I am so glad you didnt because a couple of situations like that happening and getting in the media or gun laws will be crap like everyone elses. I showed mine once in 2001... I didn't live here but I was in town when the ice storm hit this place. People were crazy, stealing gas and generators and crap. A crackhead tried to climb into the pickup I was driving and all it took was me flashing it and they scurried away at olympic runner speed.

[Gypsy]

no OPP in Manitoba Gypsy, I think you meant RCMP ;)

...the details coming out are incredible. Now it is being said that after he dropped the head at the front of the bus he went and ATE some of the body.....wow...I am pretty sure he will be finger painting in his own feces in a rubber room for the rest of his natural life...either that or bunking with Paul Bernardo.


:doh: Yes, of course. My brain was saying RCMP and my fingers wrote OPP. Argh. Hate it when that happens.

[Brad2893]

But I don't get this part

" The suspect was seized with the help of negotiators, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Sgt. Steve Colwell said.

He said no formal charges had been filed, and he declined to identify either the man in custody or the victim, who were among 34 passengers."

I'll go along with a gun probably would not have done the victim much good, But good lord, if my seat mate on a Greyhound Bus, stabs me and lops my head off, I would hope someone officially charges him with at least unlawful possession of my head.:eek2::eek2:

Canada has some major differences in the way charges and police information are handed off to media. The RCMP in particular has a long history of refusing to disclose ongoing cases and judges up here aren't afraid of issuing publication bans for highly publicized serious offences.

Another issue regarding the detention prior to formal charges is that the Crown Counsel is proceeding (as far as I know, as of today) with 2nd degree murder charges. Sounds like they aren't confident that they can prove premeditation. Either way, this guy will probably get life or be held on mental health grounds.


A large number of the murders and serious injuries in Canada are because of knife/blunt weapon violence. Handgun controls have resulted in a generally lower rate of handgun violence, with the large exception being gang-related, however if someone really wants to do some damage, they're going to find a means of some sort.

In a tight spot like a bus a handgun can be as much a liability as a help. All it takes is for the subject to get a hold of your weapon, and one round, and all of a sudden you're in a world of hurt.


Best thing to come out of this story: The passengers and bystanders kept the wacko from fleeing by surrounding the bus and wielding hammers and tools. Good on em!!!:thumbsup:

[EmbarkChief]

In this case (so far) it seems like the nut in question only wanted to harm one individual. Therefore yes, someone with a concealed handgun on the bus would not have saved any further loss of life. HOWEVER, what if the nut decided to kill as many people as he could? Fish in a barrel anyone? Had that occured I seriously doubt that anybody would have protested the judicious use of a firearm to prevent further bloodshed... I'd have shot him one way or the other, somebody who just randomly starts cutting someones head off doesn't need to be on the same bus with me or my loved ones.

[Rub61]

In this case (so far) it seems like the nut in question only wanted to harm one individual. Therefore yes, someone with a concealed handgun on the bus would not have saved any further loss of life. HOWEVER, what if the nut decided to kill as many people as he could? Fish in a barrel anyone? Had that occured I seriously doubt that anybody would have protested the judicious use of a firearm to prevent further bloodshed... I'd have shot him one way or the other, somebody who just randomly starts cutting someones head off doesn't need to be on the same bus with me or my loved ones.

Guy like that doesn't need to be on the same planet. If a concealed carry had been on the bus maybe the victim would be in critical care instead of the morgue.

[bcperry2000]

Best thing to come out of this story: The passengers and bystanders kept the wacko from fleeing by surrounding the bus and wielding hammers and tools. Good on em!!!:thumbsup:

Really???? This is what I find to be most disturbing about this story. There were 30 something people on this bus and that's the best they could do? People survive from stabbings all the time. No one survives a beheading. Now I now it takes more than a few seconds for 30 people to get off a bus. And I'm pretty sure it takes more than a few seconds to behead someone. So I still am in shock, armed or not armed, that not a single person tried to save this kid. I realize the attacker had a rambo knife but not a single person tried to stop him. Don't want to get stabbed yourself? Throw your luggage, swing your backpack/purse. Don't run off the bus and let the kid die.

If I ever saw an event like this I would walk up and put one it the back of his head. I don't care. It's just not right.

[Gypsy]

If I ever saw an event like this I would walk up and put one it the back of his head. I don't care. It's just not right.

I don't think anyone knows how they will react until they are in a situation such as this.

[dyolfknip]

If I ever saw an event like this I would walk up and put one it the back of his head. I don't care. It's just not right.


Un huh....and you know you would do this from previous experience? I didnt think so. People react to situations TOTALLY different in high stress situations...this isnt a paper target.

And they DID try to stop him, they were sleeping, woke up to this guys being massacred, once they got over the shock (and buddy was probably dead) attempted to stop him, he turned a bit on them they decided to GTFO. You realize this guy was eating bits of the other guy right?

Sorry man, no one know how they would react until put into the situation.....for instance of the 4 planes hijacked on 9/11, why is it that 3 made it to the objectives and only one group of extremely brave people stopped the 4th? You arent saying that the other 3 planes were full of cowards are you? I certainly dont think they were.

[Brad2893]

Really???? This is what I find to be most disturbing about this story. There were 30 something people on this bus and that's the best they could do? People survive from stabbings all the time. No one survives a beheading. Now I now it takes more than a few seconds for 30 people to get off a bus. And I'm pretty sure it takes more than a few seconds to behead someone. So I still am in shock, armed or not armed, that not a single person tried to save this kid. I realize the attacker had a rambo knife but not a single person tried to stop him. Don't want to get stabbed yourself? Throw your luggage, swing your backpack/purse. Don't run off the bus and let the kid die.

If I ever saw an event like this I would walk up and put one it the back of his head. I don't care. It's just not right.

I'm definitely not going to go up against a crazed attacker wielding a knife with my own bare fists. I've been in law enforcement for the past 2 years and in the military for the last 4, and the first rule is: Don't be a hero. Most of the people were in shock/disoriented/panicking and it was nighttime with all of the visibility problems to boot.

As much as intervening in a situation like this seem reasonable, my training, and my personal instincts, tell me to retreat to safety and then take him down when you have an advantage in force and equipment. This is exactly what the bus passengers and other bystanders did before police arrived. The fact that they did this means that the nut was unable to escape and injure or kill more people.

Whether or not another passenger having a sidearm in this case would have helped is really part of a larger issue. You then have to look at the overall stats and try to figure out whether saving this one life is worth an increase gun violence rate, etc., which is something I'm not going to touch here. One thing in Canada that is different is that carrying is not nearly as socially acceptable. I'm not saying that it's wrong or right, but one thing is sure and that is that the particular social aspect is not likely to change anytime soon, so carrying and popping some guy with a knife just isn't an option.

Bottom line: it's pretty hard for me to say after the fact that carrying would have definitely prevented a loss of life.

[spencenaz]

Un huh....and you know you would do this from previous experience? I didnt think so. People react to situations TOTALLY different in high stress situations...this isnt a paper target.

And they DID try to stop him, they were sleeping, woke up to this guys being massacred, once they got over the shock (and buddy was probably dead) attempted to stop him, he turned a bit on them they decided to GTFO. You realize this guy was eating bits of the other guy right?

Sorry man, no one know how they would react until put into the situation.....for instance of the 4 planes hijacked on 9/11, why is it that 3 made it to the objectives and only one group of extremely brave people stopped the 4th? You arent saying that the other 3 planes were full of cowards are you? I certainly dont think they were.

Sorry, but I'm with bcperry2000 on this one. And, I can tell you from personal experience. Panama (1989), Persian Gulf (1991), Somalia (1993). That certainly wasn't any paper target shooting AK rounds back at me.

It's called fight or flight instinct. and folks who choose to own firearms for personal protection are not typically the flight kind when the feces hits the fan.

Frankly the correlation between the bus incident and an incident in a passenger jet at 35,000 feet isn't even relevant. There is a HUGE difference. If I fight back on a bus and make a mistake, more than likely I will bear the brunt of the mistake. The bus isn't going to fall out of the sky and kill everyone on board. If I am in a jet and make a mistake I run the risk of jeopardizing the lives of every single person on that plane.

It has absolutely nothing to do with cowardice. If the pilots really were incapacitated or killed on 9/11 as it is theorized, that changes the situation completely. Now storming the cockpit and killing the terrorist who is the only one left to fly the plane isn't such a clear cut thing. To most of the passengers on those flights hijacking just meant flying to Cuba, not flying into buildings. They did not necessarily fear for their lives in the same way when the plane was taken over, that we would fear today. The only reason it is believed that the 4th flight acted any differently is that they were told by people on the ground that other hijacked planes were being deliberately flown into buildings. Had they not known that simple piece of information they probably would have acted just like to folks in the other three flights.

If the same thing happened again today people most certainly would react much differently now that they know what *might* happen. It doesn't mean they were cowards before, it just means the world has changed.

[Gypsy]

It has absolutely nothing to do with cowardice. If the pilots really were incapacitated or killed on 9/11 as it is theorized, that changes the situation completely. Now storming the cockpit and killing the terrorist who is the only one left to fly the plane isn't such a clear cut thing. To most of the passengers on those flights hijacking just meant flying to Cuba, not flying into buildings. They did not necessarily fear for their lives in the same way when the plane was taken over, that we would fear today. The only reason it is believed that the 4th flight acted any differently is that they were told by people on the ground that other hijacked planes were being deliberately flown into buildings. Had they not known that simple piece of information they probably would have acted just like to folks in the other three flights.

If the same thing happened again today people most certainly would react much differently now that they know what *might* happen. It doesn't mean they were cowards before, it just means the world has changed.


Fair enough on that point. However, I disagree with you on a few others.

First, if you fight back on a bus you may not be the only victim of your mistake. In this particular situation, the only time that fighting back might *potentially* have been worthwhile (and from what I know from the officers who attended the scene, I think the kid was long dead before anyone could react) was at the time that everyone was still on the bus, and just realizing what was going on. At that point, you have a bunch of terrified people in a small confined space. As I am sure you know from your experience, it aien't like the movies. You cannot just walk up, pump a couple into someone and expect that they will stay there AND more importantly, that your aim is good and he's going down for the count. Someone else could have gotten hurt.

After those first few seconds, that boy was a goner. No point in shooting the guy at that point. Everyone was off the bus, everyone was safe. And I don't believe in vigilanty justice, sorry.

Furthermore, I think as a member of the military, your fight or flight response is far different than the average citizen seated on a bus in rual Canada. I would suggest that it is far different than even the average person who carries a firearm. At the end of the day, the decision to take a life for the first time as a civilian is one that would cause most people (or those who haven't been watching too many movies) a moment of pause. A moment better spent getting OFF the bus rather than have two bodies and a murderer now in possession of a gun.

[britjk]

...and you could always walk around with a potato in your pants. :tease:

Dude - you're too funny. I just sprayed my screen.:rotflmao2::rotflmao2:

[bigbluejk]

Dude - you're too funny. I just sprayed my screen.:rotflmao2::rotflmao2:

I know. I already used it in real life. lol. context: discussion about the government "crazy check". NO I DON'T GET ONE! not yet at least. Im prolly just a potato away

[bcperry2000]

Un huh....and you know you would do this from previous experience? I didnt think so. People react to situations TOTALLY different in high stress situations...this isnt a paper target.

And they DID try to stop him, they were sleeping, woke up to this guys being massacred, once they got over the shock (and buddy was probably dead) attempted to stop him, he turned a bit on them they decided to GTFO. You realize this guy was eating bits of the other guy right?

Sorry man, no one know how they would react until put into the situation.....for instance of the 4 planes hijacked on 9/11, why is it that 3 made it to the objectives and only one group of extremely brave people stopped the 4th? You arent saying that the other 3 planes were full of cowards are you? I certainly dont think they were.


comparing this to 9/11 is comparing apples to oranges. completely differnent sitations here. you say they DID try to stop him? what did they do? they got off the bus and closed the doors? that's stopping him? i'm sorry, i don't care if the kid had only been stabbed once or 50 times by the time i woke up. i couldn't live with myself knowing that i ran off the bus with the others and didn't try to save him. i did read that he was doing some heinous things to the kid, but it was AFTER everyone got off the bus and a few brave individuals got back on to see if they could do anything.

overall, this is just such a sad story. i really feel for this kid and his family. i don't know why this story just unnerved me a bit.

[spencenaz]

Furthermore, I think as a member of the military, your fight or flight response is far different than the average citizen seated on a bus in rual Canada. I would suggest that it is far different than even the average person who carries a firearm. At the end of the day, the decision to take a life for the first time as a civilian is one that would cause most people (or those who haven't been watching too many movies) a moment of pause. A moment better spent getting OFF the bus rather than have two bodies and a murderer now in possession of a gun.

Fight or flight is not a military term. It's instinctual, it's in your DNA. Every human and most animals on the planet have a fight or flight instinct. Even those from Canada. :rotflmao2:

And how exactly do all these people that live in a country that doesn't allow you to carry a gun, let alone a concealed gun become such experts on the subject of carrying guns? You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I fail to see how you could be an authority on the subject.

[dyolfknip]

Fight or flight is not a military term. It's instinctual, it's in your DNA. Every human and most animals on the planet have a fight or flight instinct. Even those from Canada. :rotflmao2:

And how exactly do all these people that live in a country that doesn't allow you to carry a gun, let alone a concealed gun become such experts on the subject of carrying guns? You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I fail to see how you could be an authority on the subject.

Honestly, did you just say that everyone who carries a gun is an expert in firearms? AND you pulled the Canada card? Whats next? The way we say "about"? Oh wait, I know....how about how crappy our dollar is...(that one doesnt work so well anymore though)

This conversation was going very well. Stimulating and well thought out arguments for both sides. Is Xbox Live down or something? :rotflmao2:

[yetibear]

S

It's called fight or flight instinct. and folks who choose to own firearms for personal protection are not typically the flight kind when the feces hits the fan.


To old and close to lame to run anymore.:eek2: Time has taken it's toll and now I'm stuck having to stand and fight.:what?::rotflmao2:

I gotta say, though, unarmed, on a bus, while some mad man stabs, decapitates, and commences to chow down on his seat mate?:eek2: I would like to say, and choose to think, I would jump in and try to help the victim. That is what I choose to believe, but honestly, if such a horror suddenly broke out, I have no idea what I would actually do.

This isn't sudden battlefield carnage, or a hijacking that lasts for a long space of time. This is sitting, probably dozing, on a monotonous bus ride, surrounded by people you have been with for hours, and suddenly you wake to find yourself in a scene from a nightmare. Fight or flight my ass, I just don't know if my mind would grasp anything but the need to get away from Freddy Kruger's evil cannibal twin, with all possible haste.

I just find nothing that would give me a clue as to how I would react. Just going by the story, this attack came completely out of the blue, the best I can honestly say is I either would have tried to do something to help, or made my best effort to get as far away as fast as I could.

[07JKX]

I'm thinking pepper spray would be a great option to keep in my Jeep. I've been looking at the XD40SC so I may just have to bite. It's got all kinds of nifty safety features.




Yep, I'll be sure to work on my look. I think I need thicker eyebrows. Or maybe a large scar on the side of my face :)

I keep a fire extinguisher attached to my drivers seat... next time it happens, fill their vehicle with a thick white powder:rotflmao2: then call the cops about a suspected cocaine trafficking ring

make sure you have a camera with you, because the picture of four punk kids with white faces would be priceless!

[hawgrider1200]

Why do people who have obviously been trained in firearm safety chose to ignore that rule about chambering a round and carrying your weopon. Every firearm manufacturer that I am familiar with tells you not to carry a gun with a round chambered. Every hunting safety course informs you not to chamber a round untill you are ready to pick a target. You can't call a bullet back.

Secondly I'd like to say that I have been trained not to pull a firearm unless I am threatened. So if you have time to react you have time to chamber a round. If a guy is already shooting at you it might be a tiny bit late to pull your gun. Hope he's a bad shot. If a fellow has the drop on ya it might be a little bit safer to keep your hands where he can see them instead of reaching for your piece. this ain't the OLd West and you ain't John Wesley Hardin.

I carry sometimes but always in a holster. I carry a revolver so I don't have to chamber a round. I carry a Ruger cause it won't go off unless you want it to. but that's my personal preference.

Not following basic firearm safety rules is not the thing to do and not the thing to post on a forum where anyone can read it. Children could be reading your posts and think that's the way to live by ignoring the rules if you chose to. I saw where even the Police Officer was advocating ignoring basic firearm safety rules. That must be how so many innocent people get shot by the police.

I'm new to this forum and now I'm shocked by reading the poor choices suggested by some of you.

[Robar]

That must be how so many innocent people get shot by the police.


Do you have any documented statistics on this and what is your definition of innocent?

[hawgrider1200]

Do you have any documented statistics on this and what is your definition of innocent?

No I don't have any documented evidence. Just what is in the news. Like Ruby Ridge. Innocent, that would be someone who has not gotten convicted by a jury.

[davebloomer]

im not willing to bet my life on having time to rack it back to load my weapon in a pressure situation. don't be an IDIOT with your gun and it wont go off. plain and simple. but if im pulling it im using it. no time for nonsense.

[yetibear]

Why do people who have obviously been trained in firearm safety chose to ignore that rule about chambering a round and carrying your weopon. Every firearm manufacturer that I am familiar with tells you not to carry a gun with a round chambered. Every hunting safety course informs you not to chamber a round untill you are ready to pick a target. You can't call a bullet back.

Secondly I'd like to say that I have been trained not to pull a firearm unless I am threatened. So if you have time to react you have time to chamber a round. If a guy is already shooting at you it might be a tiny bit late to pull your gun. Hope he's a bad shot. If a fellow has the drop on ya it might be a little bit safer to keep your hands where he can see them instead of reaching for your piece. this ain't the OLd West and you ain't John Wesley Hardin.

I carry sometimes but always in a holster. I carry a revolver so I don't have to chamber a round. I carry a Ruger cause it won't go off unless you want it to. but that's my personal preference.

Not following basic firearm safety rules is not the thing to do and not the thing to post on a forum where anyone can read it. Children could be reading your posts and think that's the way to live by ignoring the rules if you chose to. I saw where even the Police Officer was advocating ignoring basic firearm safety rules. That must be how so many innocent people get shot by the police.

I'm new to this forum and now I'm shocked by reading the poor choices suggested by some of you.
:eek2::eek2::eek2:

What is this 1873?? You may not want to run around with a Colt SSA with one up the pipe, and other than a few pieces of crap, an an occasional design flaw that goes unnoticed, what SD handgun IS NOT designed for carrying with a loaded chamber? Take a DA auto, if it was not meant to carry one in the chamber, what is the purpose of having a decocker? In fact, what use is any safety if you are not meant to have one in the chamber? You tell us it's not safe to carry with a chambered round then inform us you carry a revolver with a round under the hammer, is that 'do as I say, not as I do'?
And what are you, an Israeli commando? As far as I know, they are the only one who advocate condition 3 carry.

But we will start at the top.
What manufacturer tells you not to carry with one in the chamber? And even if they do say that for liability purposes, why do the advertise, oh, say a Colt 1911, as having a capacity of 8+1? A BHP as 13+1? These are not wall hangers or safe queens, these are sidearms carried for defense. Hunter Safety courses have little bearing on the discussion here. I have taken a few defensive pistol classes, and it has never even been hinted at, to carry with an empty chamber. A holstered, cocked and locked 1911 is as safe as your Ruger, it will not just 'GO OFF' by it's self either.

Here are your "Golden Rules" of gun safety, learn them, love them. live them.

http://gunsite.com/store/media/safetyrulesign.jpg

[Autorotate]

20 years of carry and never had a weapon jump out of a holster and go off.

For general range and hunting safety, I would agree not loading a weapon until you are ready to fire it is good practice.

Warnings from weapon manufacturers are for legal recourse only.

Carry of a loaded weapon for defensive purposes is another subject all together. Having a round in the chamber, with proper training and a proper holster is not only safe but recommended.

I consider the carry of an unloaded weapon a poor choice myself. It seems since you carry a revolver, by your logic you should have one empty chamber on the cylinder when you carry.

Last, if you are a resident of GA, I hope you maintain a Georgia Firearms License and are a member of georgiacarry.org

[yetibear]

No I don't have any documented evidence. Just what is in the news. Like Ruby Ridge. Innocent, that would be someone who has not gotten convicted by a jury.

:what?:
Intentionally shooting someone, like Lon Horiuchi did to Vicky Weaver, kind of by pass all the rules of gun safety. We are not talking about the right or wrong of Ruby Ridge, so a sniper hitting his target is a poor example of proper safety techniques. Or a Cop unintentionally shooting an innocent person, he meant to hit her, and he did.:eek2:

[spencenaz]

No I don't have any documented evidence. Just what is in the news. Like Ruby Ridge. Innocent, that would be someone who has not gotten convicted by a jury.

I really don't follow your logic here. You tell us we are unsafe for carrying a loaded weapon even though you yourself admit to carrying a loaded weapon? :what?:

And you insinuate that since some police officers carry loaded weapons that somehow they are more likely to kill innocent people? And you cite as proof of that the Ruby ridge incident? There were no accidental discharges or people killed due to gun safety violations. The incident was extremely tragic, and clearly there were incredible lapses in judgment by the BATF, US Marshalls and the FBI that led to the deaths of three people and a dog who were in fact innocent. But, I don't see any correlation to the subject of this thread.

"Innocent, that would be someone who has not gotten convicted by a jury." is a legal definition of innocence, and is a correct one. However, if Ted Bundy was alive and raping my sister or wife and I kill him, very few people will cry over his innocence. I suppose you would let him just have his way with your wife? Because he is innocent, right?

[spencenaz]

Honestly, did you just say that everyone who carries a gun is an expert in firearms?

Clearly not since those words are not present in the post. I would never state that which I do not believe to be true. I can personally attest that there are many gun owners and even some concealed carry permit holders who are complete idiots and probably should not own a firearm.

The "Canada card" as you put it was brought up since the country does not allow you to CARRY a firearm legally. And, that is what this thread is about. It has nothing to do with:


The way you talk "aboot it"
How much we friggin' hate Celine Dion & Alan Thicke
The way you call ham, bacon
The fact that we are way better than you at ice hockey now even though you invented the sport.
Or the fact that Canada is just America's hat. http://boards.ign.com/teh_vestibule/b5296/167509126/p1/?1


However, I will give kudos to your country for:


Don Cherry (funny guy)
SCTV
And helping us expel the Nazis from Europe in in WWII

[bcperry2000]

what about calling a couch a chesterfield? i love that one. used to date a canadian and she always called it a chesterfield. she was also a kickboxer. so i never gave her any crap :)

[yetibear]

All the Canadians that show up here are either Frenchies, or real nice cause they are happy to be able to converse in English.:rotflmao2::rotflmao2:

[blackjkrubi]

All the Canadians that show up here are either Frenchies, or real nice cause they are happy to be able to converse in English.:rotflmao2::rotflmao2:

so... I'm either a frenchie or.... a real nice guy??? is it possible to be both ?:thinking::thinking:

[yetibear]

so... I'm either a frenchie or.... a real nice guy??? is it possible to be both ?:thinking::thinking:

You are from Ontario, that doesn't count. But yeah, both is possible, but there ain't much else to do here but pick on the Quebecois.:dontknow2:
:rotflmao2::rotflmao2:

[blackjkrubi]

You are from Ontario, that doesn't count. But yeah, both is possible, but there ain't much else to do here but pick on the Quebecois.:dontknow2:
:rotflmao2::rotflmao2:


I wrote down Ontario cause most people probl. don't know where Gatineau Qc, is but yeah I'm a real québecois and proud of it too so pick on somebody else cause we're are a minority and we could be offended !!! :bleh::bleh::bleh:

[dyolfknip]

The way you talk "aboot it"
Ya ya....Y'all and Youse

How much we friggin' hate Celine Dion & Alan Thicke
Celine Dion I can understand, but Alan Thicke? Cmon?
Might I remind you of Liberace?

The way you call ham, bacon
No, ham is ham...bacon is bacon...and what you call "Canadian bacon" is called peameal Bacon here.

The fact that we are way better than you at ice hockey now even though you invented the sport.

HA HA HA...you said that just to get a rise out of me didnt you? Stats dont lie, look up the amount of Canadians that are in the NHL vs the US. Nuff Said


Or the fact that Canada is just America's hat. http://boards.ign.com/teh_vestibule/b5296/167509126/p1/?1


Ya but we are a really big hat, you know, bigger than the head we sit on.

However, I will give kudos to your country for:


Don Cherry (funny guy)
Lives about 30 min from here on Wolfe Island....I agree

SCTV
Pure Win

And helping us expel the Nazis from Europe in in WWII


Ya you are welcome for that, thanks for showing up 2 years late though ;)




LOL thanks....this was fun....here is something for you to check out for a laugh:

Talking to Americans ;) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhTZ_tgMUdo)

[yetibear]

I wrote down Ontario cause most people probl. don't know where Gatineau Qc, is but yeah I'm a real québecois and proud of it too so pick on somebody else cause we're are a minority and we could be offended !!! :bleh::bleh::bleh:

Well I would never try to offend a member of any minority around here.:naw: I would have to apologize if I did:blush:, but the purpose of international borders are to allow the residents of each side to hurl insults at each other under the protection of armed border guards.:rotflmao2::rotflmao2:

And remember, you lied about you place of origin:what?:, and hid your Quebecois(notice I capitalized the Q out of respect, you didn't:rotflmao1:)-ness. Had I known you were Quebecois, from Quebec, I would have been much more insulting because there are extra border patrol personnel on duty for the weekend and I would have felt safe.:brows: And we are all armed also, it's a lot easier to insult people, and display rude, boorish behavior when you have the guns and they don't.:yup:

But I did enjoy Expo '69, 70, 71, 72, Man and His World, and all the great strip clubs in Magog & Sherbrook.
:brows::brows:

:rotflmao2::rotflmao2:

(but just in case I did offend you I apologize, wasn't my intent.)

[blackjkrubi]

Well I would never try to offend a member of any minority around here.:naw: I would have to apologize if I did:blush:, but the purpose of international borders are to allow the residents of each side to hurl insults at each other under the protection of armed border guards.:rotflmao2::rotflmao2:

And remember, you lied about you place of origin:what?:, and hid your Quebecois(notice I capitalized the Q out of respect, you didn't:rotflmao1:)-ness. Had I known you were Quebecois, from Quebec, I would have been much more insulting because there are extra border patrol personnel on duty for the weekend and I would have felt safe.:brows: And we are all armed also, it's a lot easier to insult people, and display rude, boorish behavior when you have the guns and they don't.:yup:

But I did enjoy Expo '69, 70, 71, 72, Man and His World, and all the great strip clubs in Magog & Sherbrook.
:brows::brows:

:rotflmao2::rotflmao2:

(but just in case I did offend you I apologize, wasn't my intent.)


:rotflmao2::rotflmao2::rotflmao2: I have to go back to Ogensburg NY next week to pick up more parts at the UPS store, should I just send my Ontarian-english speaking wife instead ??? I guess it would be safer for me ..... :rotflmao1::rotflmao1:

no apologies necessary....:thumbsup::thumbsup:

[yetibear]

:rotflmao2::rotflmao2::rotflmao2: I have to go back to Ogensburg NY next week to pick up more parts at the UPS store, should I just send my Ontarian-english speaking wife instead ??? I guess it would be safer for me ..... :rotflmao1::rotflmao1:
No, you can come yourself, your money is good here.........now.:clap::rotflmao1:


no apologies necessary....:thumbsup::thumbsup:

That is what I thought, but I just wanted to be sure we were seeing things the same.:thumbsup:

[Gypsy]

Fight or flight is not a military term. It's instinctual, it's in your DNA. Every human and most animals on the planet have a fight or flight instinct. Even those from Canada. :rotflmao2:

And how exactly do all these people that live in a country that doesn't allow you to carry a gun, let alone a concealed gun become such experts on the subject of carrying guns? You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I fail to see how you could be an authority on the subject.

Sorry, I was away for the weekend.

A) Never said flight or fight is a military term. I said that a member of a military organization would have a different response than a non-military one.

B) Never said I was an expert. But how do you know what I am or am not allowed to carry or trained to do? I'm in law enforcement. I know a whole heck of a lot about guns. And people's response to them. Which you would have known if you had paid attention to any of my other posts in this thread. I am awfully good shooting paper but I wouldn't want to discharge a f/a in a bus load of people.

PS. Don Cherry lives in Mississauga. His cottage is in Wolfe Island. I've seen him walking his dog in his underwear. That's got to make me an expert in something.

[Robar]

Someone being trained in tactics and/or firearms does not necessarily have anything to do with how any particular person will react in a high-stress life or death situations. It has a lot to do with a person's mental make up, what they have on the inside. I have seen both a "highly trained" individual freeze under high stress and I have also seen an individual who was thought to be somewhat of a moron become a hero in the same circumstance. Hindsight is of course 20/20 and you can only say how you would react if you had been there to react, or not. : 2cents :

[Gypsy]

Someone being trained in tactics and/or firearms does not necessarily have anything to do with how any particular person will react in a high-stress life or death situations. It has a lot to do with a person's mental make up, what they have on the inside. I have seen both a "highly trained" individual freeze under high stress and I have also seen an individual who was thought to be somewhat of a moron become a hero in the same circumstance. Hindsight is of course 20/20 and you can only say how you would react if you had been there to react, or not. : 2cents :

Absolutely agree with you - which is what I was trying to say earlier no amount of bravado is going to predict how you will react. However, I do believe that someone with a military history may have already experienced such a situation and may have a calmer head for high risk take down situations. Therefore, I think they might be better able to speak about what they woulda coulda mighta done in such a situation as opposed to someone who has just played one too many rounds of Grand Theft Auto. That was my only point about some of the varying views in this thread.

Also, I find it interesting that it is the people who have been in that situation or at least have been trained to be in that situation who are saying you won't know until you live it and those who have never saying they would put a round in the guy's head.

Mind you, I'm not an expert. :naw:

[blackjkrubi]

Absolutely agree with you - which is what I was trying to say earlier no amount of bravado is going to predict how you will react. However, I do believe that someone with a military history may have already experienced such a situation and may have a calmer head for high risk take down situations. Therefore, I think they might be better able to speak about what they woulda coulda mighta done in such a situation as opposed to someone who has just played one too many rounds of Grand Theft Auto. That was my only point about some of the varying views in this thread.

Also, I find it interesting that it is the people who have been in that situation or at least have been trained to be in that situation who are saying you won't know until you live it and those who have never saying they would put a round in the guy's head.

Mind you, I'm not an expert. :naw:

X2 on that :thumbsup:

[hawgrider1200]

I really don't follow your logic here. You tell us we are unsafe for carrying a loaded weapon even though you yourself admit to carrying a loaded weapon? :what?:

And you insinuate that since some police officers carry loaded weapons that somehow they are more likely to kill innocent people? And you cite as proof of that the Ruby ridge incident? There were no accidental discharges or people killed due to gun safety violations. The incident was extremely tragic, and clearly there were incredible lapses in judgment by the BATF, US Marshalls and the FBI that led to the deaths of three people and a dog who were in fact innocent. But, I don't see any correlation to the subject of this thread.

"Innocent, that would be someone who has not gotten convicted by a jury." is a legal definition of innocence, and is a correct one. However, if Ted Bundy was alive and raping my sister or wife and I kill him, very few people will cry over his innocence. I suppose you would let him just have his way with your wife? Because he is innocent, right?:what?::what?:

Do you really think that carying a single action revolver with the transfer bar that only comes into place to transfer the inertia from the hammer to the primer when the hammer is in the full cock position is anything like having an auto loader cocked and locked? That's like comparing apples to oranges.
Sounds to me that you might protest too much. R U one of them police that shoots first and asks questions later? What about that 90 year old woman that ended up with 6 cops unloading into her? Tell me they ain't trigger happy.

I suppose you also advocate the no-knock warrant. I hope you come bust down my door in the wee hours of the morning.:eek2:

As far as coorelation to the thread, I see trained persons advocating the disregard for basic firearm safety which in my book is just like those pigs in IDAHO who were pointing weapons at unarmed civilians. My dad always told me not to point a gun at anyone you did not intend to kill. An unarmed civilian would be a non-target. If you still fail to see the coorelation I suggest you just don't want too.

[yetibear]

:what?::what?:

Do you really think that carying a single action revolver with the transfer bar that only comes into place to transfer the inertia from the hammer to the primer when the hammer is in the full cock position is anything like having an auto loader cocked and locked? That's like comparing apples to oranges.
Sounds to me that you might protest too much. R U one of them police that shoots first and asks questions later? What about that 90 year old woman that ended up with 6 cops unloading into her? Tell me they ain't trigger happy.

I suppose you also advocate the no-knock warrant. I hope you come bust down my door in the wee hours of the morning.:eek2:

As far as coorelation to the thread, I see trained persons advocating the disregard for basic firearm safety which in my book is just like those pigs in IDAHO who were pointing weapons at unarmed civilians. My dad always told me not to point a gun at anyone you did not intend to kill. An unarmed civilian would be a non-target. If you still fail to see the coorelation I suggest you just don't want too.

DUDE! DUDE! Did you skip your ritalin today? :eek2: Are you also known as Gunkid? Do you advocate in favor of the tactical wheelbarrow?

This IS NOT a cop thread. An SAA is irrelevant, even bring it up displays a total lack of basic understanding of the topic. And apples to oranges, I would feel just as safe with a condition 1, 1911, as any modern single action revolver.

And what is this fixation on Ruby Ridge? And no-knock warrants?

Learn what gun safety really is, sometimes ya gotta take em out of the safe.

REALLY, lose the attitude, you are in over your head.

[hawgrider1200]

why don't you respond to what i'm saying instead of just trying to insult me? Maybe you are not equiped!

Is it or is it not the first thing firearm safety advocates teach ya? Not to carry with one in chamber!

[Robar]

I always remember "Treat every gun as if it were loaded" to be first, but that's just me.

[yetibear]

why don't you respond to what i'm saying instead of just trying to insult me? Maybe you are not equiped!

Is it or is it not the first thing firearm safety advocates teach ya? Not to carry with one in chamber!

Ok fair enough.
1) I was not just trying!
2) I really don't know what there is to respond to, I don't see where Ruby Ridge has anything to do with this.
3) I may not be equipped, but I am strapped.
4) No "it not the first thing firearm safety advocates teach ya", see Robar's post above, that is rule #1

Stop the cop bashing, this is not the thread for that.
Get over your fear of loaded guns.
Stop talking to us like we are in your Hunter Safety class, breaking open the action, when you cross a fence line, has no bearing on this discussion.

And just so we can get passed this, for the last time:

4) No "it not the first thing firearm safety advocates teach ya", see Robar's post above, that is rule #1
Treat every gun as if it were loaded
Treat every gun as if it were loaded
Treat every gun as if it were loaded

[SH0RTBUS]

4) No "it not the first thing firearm safety advocates teach ya", see Robar's post above, that is rule #1
Treat every gun as if it were loaded
Treat every gun as if it were loaded
Treat every gun as if it were loaded


Every gun I have/carry IS loaded.

[davebloomer]

my #1 rule is to not drive the jeep when im loaded :rotflmao2:

[Robar]

my #1 rule is to not drive the jeep when im loaded :rotflmao2:
That's a good one too. :yup:

[spencenaz]

:what?::what?:

Do you really think that carying a single action revolver with the transfer bar that only comes into place to transfer the inertia from the hammer to the primer when the hammer is in the full cock position is anything like having an auto loader cocked and locked? That's like comparing apples to oranges.
Sounds to me that you might protest too much. R U one of them police that shoots first and asks questions later? What about that 90 year old woman that ended up with 6 cops unloading into her? Tell me they ain't trigger happy.

I suppose you also advocate the no-knock warrant. I hope you come bust down my door in the wee hours of the morning.:eek2:

As far as coorelation to the thread, I see trained persons advocating the disregard for basic firearm safety which in my book is just like those pigs in IDAHO who were pointing weapons at unarmed civilians. My dad always told me not to point a gun at anyone you did not intend to kill. An unarmed civilian would be a non-target. If you still fail to see the coorelation I suggest you just don't want too.

Wow, you've got some.... well let's just call them issues. :what?:

[spencenaz]

Never said I was an expert. But how do you know what I am or am not allowed to carry or trained to do? I'm in law enforcement. I know a whole heck of a lot about guns. And people's response to them. Which you would have known if you had paid attention to any of my other posts in this thread. I am awfully good shooting paper but I wouldn't want to discharge a f/a in a bus load of people.

Fair enough, I did look at your posts. I must have missed the LE references though, my fault.

[hawgrider1200]

Wow, you've got some.... well let's just call them issues. :what?:

OK, I guess I can go along with you that I have issues. The very thought of a no-knock warrant makes me angry. I thought there was constitutional admendment that kept police from that sort of nonsence. Ruby ridge and that kinda "justice" makes me angry. What our forefathers did to the NATIVE INHABITANTS of this land that they stole makes me angry. What our government did in WACO TEXAS also makes me angry. I guess that would make me a nut case in some people's eyes. BLIND FAITH IN YOUR GOVERNMENT CAN GET YOU KILLED JUST ASK GERMAN JEWS.

[claymore]

#1 Every gun is always loaded.
#2 Never point a gun at anything or anyone you don't intend to shoot.
#3 Always be sure of what's beyond the target.