mudbog...

[troy_boy]

Hello....Ok, I entered my Jeep in a mudbog Sept 6. I have missed it 3 years in a row. It is 3 + feet deep. My question is...Has anyone done this and I want to know what gears to be in? I have experimented with a couple but realy would like some input on what works best... I am thinking 3rd and low and mabey be able to hit 4th but not sure, any input would be cool. Thanks.....:clap:

[Warlock13]

Get a SNORKEL!!!!!! Just Womp it youll be fine:clap::thumbsup:

[troy_boy]

Well, hehehe, I like your thought. Im still laughing...I dont think I need a snorkel as there is no way mud is going to get that deep. But....I really would like some input on a gear....and should I try to nail a higher gear as I move down the mud hole? I know the JK is weak on the low end in high and but in low is very powerful but dont want to pick to high of take off gear to stall or to low of gear to not have the momentiom...Get it? :thinking:

[HITMONEY]

Well, hehehe, I like your thought. Im still laughing...I dont think I need a snorkel as there is no way mud is going to get that deep. But....I really would like some input on a gear....and should I try to nail a higher gear as I move down the mud hole? I know the JK is weak on the low end in high and but in low is very powerful but dont want to pick to high of take off gear to stall or to low of gear to not have the momentiom...Get it? :thinking:

What tires will you be running?

[mikeyfl]

3+ feet of mud is a lot. :eek2:

[troy_boy]

Id say as much as 3 feet but probably an average of 2 feet deep. I know it is very tough. If I make the first heat there is a final heat and the mud will be much less by then.

35" Tires....

[mikeyfl]

Id say as much as 3 feet but probably an average of 2 feet deep. I know it is very tough. If I make the first heat there is a final heat and the mud will be much less by then.

35" Tires....

the mud might be less, but the ruts will be bigger.

[Big D2]

What no mud bogers here?

[troy_boy]

So what Im gathering is out of 100+ views, no body had done this and can help me out? Or is it that no one gives a shit? Just courious....

[Wes]

Mmm, I don't think that it's no one gives a shit. I think its more along the lines of no one having much experience in that area with the JK.

[TBJK]

He asked what kind of tires you have. It will make a difference

[troy_boy]

Id say as much as 3 feet but probably an average of 2 feet deep. I know it is very tough. If I make the first heat there is a final heat and the mud will be much less by then.

35" Tires....

Ok, so I answered his question, What gear would you recommend?

[TBJK]

I believe what style tires..Ie all terrains,mud terrains ect..

[troy_boy]

Oh, Ok.

Xterrain Procomp Mud 17" by 12.50 and 35". Still in fairly good shape.

[jpjunkie]

I've done mud bogs in over 4x4s but not in my JK. Must be the street tires I'm trying to run slick.
You should be use to your Jeep so keep in mind that the worse thing you can do is lose momentum. Can you spin your 35s in 4th? Some of the mud pits are so thick that it is hard to spin.
The last time I ran it was an 80 model Chevy w/38.5" gumbos.
It was great.
Keep'em spinning.

[troy_boy]

Thats what Im thinking, tire spin is the key. I dont know if 4th can do it and I would hate to loose momentum but a higher gear is better. I tested 3 thrd and it seems like a great speed and power but cant find a good mudhole to really test it. Id much rather use 4th but dont know. I only have one chance to move to heat #2....

[The_Captain]

I say second or third, but that would be my Jeep.

We needed to know,
tire size, and make
what trans.
what gears you have.
stuff like that.

I usually go 4lo in second gear to make sure I make it through, but if speed is an issue, I would say third, but I have no experiance with fourth gear for mud, seems much too high for my 3.21's.

[troy_boy]

I have 4.88ts. Dana 44. With 35's. Maby I should test these gears some where....Dont know where...

[Warlock13]

I wanna see some pictures of this event!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

[jeepin08]

never done a mud bog before but have been mudding. I would guess 2nd maybe 3rd. I would think that although you would be going slower in 2nd than 3rd, you would have more power to keep them spinning.

[mikeyfl]

I wanna see some pictures of this event!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

x2. :yup: :yup:

[jkkat]

4th lo is not going to cut it, maybe 3rd with your gear set-up, 4th is really tight with RubyDoo and her 5.13's

[troy_boy]

I wanna see some pictures of this event!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

I have lots of family with cameras and will most definately shoot some on here...:clap:

Allright, Its settled... 3rd and low and set it on 3-4000 rpm. I dont know if I will stick my neck out and try to grab 4th. I'll just have to see how well it is moving. I know with the way the trires stick out, mud will be flying and should look cool. Even if I dont make it, It'll be fun. My 6 year old little nephew will be my co-pilot, He should have a blast.

Wish I had lockers.....Hmmmmm

Thanks for the input.

I cant remember for sure. Is the esp off totally in low?

[dyolfknip]

Wish I had lockers.....Hmmmmm

Thanks for the input.

I cant remember for sure. Is the esp off totally in low?

Esp is off totally in 4 low. Also you can turn it off fully in 4 hi by coming to a stop and holding the button down for 8-10 seconds, you will hear a "ding" and see "ESP OFF" on your gauge.

Why do you want lockers in mud? So it gets flicked off evenly?:brows:

[troy_boy]

Esp is off totally in 4 low. Also you can turn it off fully in 4 hi by coming to a stop and holding the button down for 8-10 seconds, you will hear a "ding" and see "ESP OFF" on your gauge.

Why do you want lockers in mud? So it gets flicked off evenly?:brows:

Thanks.

Yea really. I dont want mud flyin off two wheels but all four. Hehehe.

It probably wont make a difference, lockers or not.

[easttnruby]

I would recommend going with 4-hi and 3rd, MAYBE 4th. You'll feel which one you need. I also recommend keeping your tires moving side to side as well. Kind of helps you "snake" through. be sure to post pics win or lose!:thumbsup:

[MI MudBoss]

i have never done an event like this. i've watched a lot, but i'm no expert, this is just my 2 cents. i think if you tried shifting during the bog that you would lose momentum. if she starts to slow down then move your steering side to side to try to grab some side wall bite since your tires will be caked full by then.
and PLEEEEAAASE show us some pics! :brows:

[troy_boy]

I promise I will throw some pics up here. I dont know how bright the arena is but should not be a problem.

I have missed this event 3 years in a row and was allways dissapointed that I never went and signed up, not this year! Im a little nervous though...

I do know about turning the wheel back and forth but as long as I keep tire spin they should stay somewhat clean and keep me moving. Man Im stoked, cant wait!:thumbsup:

[hawgrider1200]

Come on down here to visit we got all the mud u can stand to practice in. I'd not try shifting gears in the midle of a bog though. I never did a mud bog but have been in my share of mud holes in the hunting clubs I've been in and some on public land. you gotta keep moving and spinning the tires don't seem to do nuthin but dig ya in deeper. 2-3ft of good thick mud is gonna take a low gear. you may float yer jeep. 35" tires only got 17 " of ground clearance minus how far your pumpkin hangs. so stock clearance is 10 inches stock tires are 28inches. 35's give ya 3.5" additional clearance. So you got 13.5" ground clearance. Good luck getting through 2-3 ft of good thick mud with that set up. Ya might need 44's for that run.

[troy_boy]

Just thinking about last years mudbog. In the first heat is very difficult and I know the running gear will be pushing mud. I think only 5 out of probably 15 trucks made it. The second heat, the mud gets pushed out some and is not as deep but is rutted somewhat. I was thinking if I can get enough speed out the gate it could possibly float some??? Thats why I want to choose a gear that will give me the speed right away.

This mudbog start line is built up on kind of a mound of harder dirt and you sort of plunge in. Hehehe. Thats the only time I have to be at speed....

[JTLJCox]

Don't put yourself into a situation where you might have to shift, you'll be stuck if you lose power and try to shift. Keep the rpm's up and keep moving that steering wheel back and forth for traction. Prior to heading for the finish line locate a good solid retrieval point so they don't pull off your back bumper when you get pulled out. You might give some thought to spraying som PAM or other brand of non-stick cooking spray everywhere you don't want to have the mud stick like inner fenders, underside, etc. Steer into he ruts and use them to your benefit, hug the edge of the pit for traction, give some thought to reversing those 'claw' tires. Some believe they dig better when tuned around. Don't forget to air them down!

Have fun and remind the young feller NOT to stick his head out the window.

[bofer84]

if you have a manual, go for 5th low range. i have found it to be perfect in the fl mud. actually, reading your post, you said you have 35s. do you have stock gears? if your running 410s and 35s i would choose 4 low, maybe 5th depending. dont get the carpet stuck under the accelerator

[troy_boy]

I actually thought about taking the top down for the event just to add a little more fun..:eek2: Dont want to clean it up though.

Im running 410's and 35's. Maby 4th is better...Making this gear decision is probablly the hardest choice. It could make or break it.

I have tow straps and will have them attached and tucked to be ready for a tug.

I knew airing down for rocks but in mud? What pressure do you recommend?

Thanks all...16 more days...My hands are sweating allready...

[jeep4life]

barely anyone would enter a mudbog with a jk...mudbogs are a mysterious place...you never know how deep the ruts are, where it drops off, how thick the mud is, what is on the bottom of the ruts...so sorry i havent bogs....but i have gone through mud holes. and if you have stock gears id prolly 4 hi 2nd or 3 gear.....depending on how long the hole is and how much power u think ur going to need

[Spillidge]

.....can't wait for the photos......

[Ben]

if you have a manual, go for 5th low range. i have found it to be perfect in the fl mud. actually, reading your post, you said you have 35s. do you have stock gears? if your running 410s and 35s i would choose 4 low, maybe 5th depending. dont get the carpet stuck under the accelerator

I always get a kick out of the rubi guys talking about what gears to use in certain situations, those of us with 3.21 gears and 32's have completely different perspectives! Just idling on level ground in first gear I am moving about 6-8 mph! I tried to climb a steep hill in 2 hi the other day and hit it going about 15-20, in 1st, but the motor bogged down and even with the accelerator floored, it wouldn't spin the tires and finally died.

Thank god for low range I put it in first low and idled up the hill no gas!

[bofer84]

yea i dont know what it feels like on your jeep, but i would choose 4th low gear if it were me.

[yellowjeeper85]

i have 35s and 4:10s and if it looks soupy and watery on the top, i'd go 4th gear, if it looks thick and creamy on top, i'd go 3rd gear... BUT!!! the us rubi guys have a lower transfer case so, for you, i'd say drop it down a gear... if its soupy and watery on top then try 3rd, thick and creamy, 2nd.... of coure the best advise i can give you is to find a mud hole to practice with. Wherever the event is being held, see if you can go sometime before then and try it, or find another local event to just go have some fun with to understand how your jeep will react. good luck

[2k2wranglerx]

i hate mud, BUT the best rig i ever had that would do mud was my 46 willys that was stretched on a CJ5 frame.

small block chevy V8 power!
Swampers!
Light weight!
spool rear locker front
big axles

i don't get a runnign start, you tend to just bury your front tires. i drop the front tires in then pin it to the wood!

4 15' high rooster tails :) that's how it's done.

Good luck with the JK though..... i wouldn't do it in mine.

[rubiconjack]

I also recommend keeping your tires moving side to side as well. Kind of helps you "snake" through.

x2 this too ... I have played in mud fields .. in my Mickey T. Baja Claws ... I had to snake through the ruts to keep from getting stuck. I hit all of them in Lo ... 1st taking off and second and third the whole way through. I hit about 3000 RPMS, would have hit 2500 if I was in 4th but would have not gotten enough power.

That was with open diffs and 3.73s. and 35s . I now have 4.10s and lockers .. haven't been out since then .. well the drowing of my JK too about 4 months ago. I am in dire need of some mud.

Definetly take pictures n post em!

[Rough_Country]

I would think more along the lines of shifting through the tranny like as the wheel speed dropped or increased. It's always more fun to run through mud with high wheel speed throwing it everywhere.

[troy_boy]

5 More days kitty cats.....:crazyeyes:

It rained really hard this morning so I am going to find me a good slick mud hole and try out a couple gears.

The main difference testing out here is there is a road base and the Jeep can grab it and go...In the bog, I dont have that.

I am going to go get 5-6 cameras to pass out to my family. There are about 9-10 of them going to watch. Between them all they should get some decent pics.

My hands are sweating and I think Ive developed a ulser...:ya:

[jkkat]

5 More days kitty cats.....:crazyeyes:

My hands are sweating and I think Ive developed a ulser...:ya:

Troy,

You NEED to relax and just feel it. If you go in all tensed up your will make a mistake. Pratice is good and bee confident. Watch other due it and see where to go, good or bad, then you will know where the possible best place for you.

[troy_boy]

Troy,

You NEED to relax and just feel it. If you go in all tensed up your will make a mistake. Pratice is good and bee confident. Watch other due it and see where to go, good or bad, then you will know where the possible best place for you.

Thanks jkkat, your right. I did do some practice today and glad I did cuz I normally dont look at a muddy spot as a race track so to speak and I noticed I had to really steer it to keep it straight, interesting.
It gets right up and goes though. I feel a little more relaxed and will go back out in a bit. Thanks for the support.

:clap:

[jkkat]

I wish that i was closer to ya or i would go with ya, this sounds like fun.

[justinstoffregen]

Man I hate mud...but I wanna' see the pics! have fun...I say 4th gear...

[Josephus]

I'd say run the highest gear you can redline to before you hit the slop. If there's only a 50 feet launch pad you'll be lucky to max-out 2nd gear. Snorkel time.:thumbsup:
Keep your RPMs up and if it is truely a 'Pit' hug a wall and let the front wheel ride down the wall (preferably the passenger side with the low air intake). Don't forget to raise your breather vents for axles, trans & case.
When it comes time to clean the grime out - I like Simple Green and a extension cord drop-light in the cab overnight to wick-out the moisture.

[Warlock13]

Tomorrow is the big day!!!!!! I wanna see some pics of the jk in the mud bogs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:clap:

[greenmachine07]

X2 should be awsome:D

[jeeperjkj]

Well, it's the 7th now ;)... any pics?

[Ewok]

Well, it's the 7th now ;)... any pics?

Dude it's the 6th!!!

[fish]

Dude it's the 6th!!!

might be the 7th in guam:dontknow2:

[jeeperjkj]

might be the 7th in guam:dontknow2:

Dude it's the 6th!!!

1034am here... on the 7th! ;)

[Ewok]

1034am here... on the 7th! ;)

Ahh didn't see Guam, my bad......

[hawgrider1200]

in my opinion, your point is that the sixth has come and gone ande we have yet to see pix of this mudbog. U think maybe old boy broke his jeep n can't get home???

[mikeyfl]

in my opinion, your point is that the sixth has come and gone ande we have yet to see pix of this mudbog. U think maybe old boy broke his jeep n can't get home???

maybe hes sitting on the roof? :bleh:

[Warlock13]

I told him to get a snorkel!!!!!:rotflmao2:

[Ewok]

Maybe he got burried and they couldn't find him!

[hawgrider1200]

:eek2:well let's all hope nothing bad came of his daring attempt. I saw a picture of a 3 or 4 ft mudhole on tv and it ate trucks with 40's. I once saw a real live mudbog locally and it ate trucks with 40's but a little old VW rail buggy w/2wheel drive went through it. front end floated and it had some of those paddle wheel tires. freakin awesome

[justinstoffregen]

Did this guy F his Jeep up? :dontknow2:

[Warlock13]

Even if he did....I STILL WANT PICTURES!!!!!!!!!!!:synister:

[justinstoffregen]

Even if he did....I STILL WANT PICTURES!!!!!!!!!!!:synister:

Especially!!!

[greenmachine07]

i agree i want the pics...........where did he go:thinking:

hopefully not truck on 40s ran him over:crazyeyes:

[Warlock13]

Should we start searching through the mud bogs for this guy:dontknow2:

This has become who has the best flame thread.:synister:

[Ewok]

Still no pics yet! Hmmmm maybe something bad happend such as car wreck..................lets hope not....

[HITMONEY]

Maybe they had to call out a CH 54 to snatch him out.. :dontknow2:

http://www.combatreform.com/CH54liftingM551sheridanlighttankincolor.jpg

[Ewok]

Maybe they had to call out a CH 54 to snatch him out.. :dontknow2:

http://www.combatreform.com/CH54liftingM551sheridanlighttankincolor.jpg

That wouldn't be bad replie to this thread! A picture of his Jeep hanging from that! :rotflmao1:

BTW, Hitmoney your Jeep looks almost exactly like mine! Great choices!

[tkob1060]

I have 4.88ts. Dana 44. With 35's. Maby I should test these gears some where....Dont know where...

Im running 410's and 35's. Maby 4th is better...Making this gear decision is probablly the hardest choice. It could make or break it.

I..

Maybe that ulser got him sent to the hospital :dontknow2:

He needs to decide what gears he has though, one is from post 18 other is 33:dontknow2:

[TEEJ]

Just caught this thread...LOL

I don't think it matters what gearing he has...if it did, he could have used simple math to arrive at a target speed/rpm combination.

He was just guessing. Mud bogging looks like a "Hold my Beer, and watch this" type event, because, from the outside, it looks like they just floor it, and rooster tail as far as they can go...and that's about it.

And some do it that way, but, at a competitive level, they will not win like that.

Shifting when the mud will get between the clutch plates on a manual is not pretty, and, it can strand the poor sucker on the way home, etc.

2' of mud, as in MUD, is not going to work with 35's, as mentioned previously...too much resistance from the drivetrain, etc....it will bog him down.

2' of muddy slop is doable at least...as its more of a dirty water crossing with a soft bottom.

:D

There is no one gear choice for a bog, as the day of the event, you have to assess the field conditions THEN...right up until you run'n gun...as the guy before you CHANGED the conditions, etc.

The advice about avoiding high centering in ruts, hugging a berm/bank for traction/less depth to fight, etc...is good.

Sawing the wheel back and forth to nibble out some more traction...also good.

Shifting as you go through a mud bog...that was bad for a DD....for a competition rig that gets trailered home, well, you hope the prize money pays for the new clutch, etc.

D:

[TheonlyREDhead 2008 JK]

I dont Know what happened to that guy, But i am going to a mud bog this saturday and I will post some pics here for ya all.

Red

I went back in May let me see if I can find any of those pics.

Yes here are some

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/116/picture272md0.jpg

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/5186/picture274wd4.jpg

[TheonlyREDhead 2008 JK]

Here are some more pics

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/3659/picture389mp6.jpg

http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/981/picture386pb3.jpg

http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/3703/picture380bw4.jpg

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/2828/picture376fu1.jpg

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/3876/picture375zj1.jpg

[TheonlyREDhead 2008 JK]

and more

http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/7609/picture373th9.jpg

http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/586/picture361rj6.jpg

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/1958/picture317nx6.jpg

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/9853/picture307fp5.jpg

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/2182/picture276br7.jpg

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/2762/picture306ln5.jpg

Ok I will post some more pics after this weekends mud bog.

[justinstoffregen]

Where is he????????????/

[kntr]

I hate mud. It is so hard on stuff. I use to mud bog all the time in my 69 Bronco. Now I stick to Baja racing and only hit the mud when I have to.

[troy_boy]

I should have let you all know I would be in between jobs during this event and I dont have internet at home.

I want to say thank you all for the awsome posts in this thread!

I did at least have the balls to go for it!!!

I have 5 cameras I will get cd's for this weekend and post pics.

The mud was close to 2' deep and very thick! I mean a large handfull probablly weighed 10 lbs I swear.

I pulled up there and chose 3rd and low. (now, I told myself if it got to where it was digging an inch a minute I was going to stop, this is my daily driver, I think that is wise). I made it about 1/3 of the way, It was digging and moving but slow. I backed off to stop...Decided heck, go for it more because I started in the deep end and mabey it would get going a little better. Nope. I couldnt get the rpm's back up and had to shut it down. :naw:

The anouncer was sure giving me a hard time, but thats his job, to get the crowd into it and have fun. Im sure they did.

I had a blast and my 6 year old Nephew seemed to love it too. 35's are too small. There was 3-4 others that didnt make it too. But one thing I did notice is the other rigs were "stock" BULL. Most of them would not even be able to drive on the street. But thats ok, It was all for fun and a new adventure.

Next year, I will have aftermarket exaust, chip, Intake and lockers since they dont seem to care if it really is stock. 37's are the largest you can go but I noticed a "stock" rig with 41's. My jeep was the only "stock" in the event. It was also the only Jeep.

Boy, let me tell you, that mud was so thick, It took 30+$ at the car wash and even more at home to get all the mud out. When I pulled out of there to head to the car wash, It had death wobble for the mud crammed into the wheels! I could only go 25 mph! Hehehe.

All in all, It was a fun time and the family had a blast. The Jeep seems just fine and cant wait till next year.

Give me a few days and I will have those pics.

[tambil68]

Hey there, great to hear from you. This thread has provided quite some amusement to many.

Glad you did it and had a good time. Jeeps are very capable stock, and available mod choices are awesome of course.

Look forward to the pics.

[troy_boy]

TheonlyREDhead, Great pics. Is that your son in there? He sure is clean unlike the rest of the jeep. That looked like fun, do you still run the mud?





http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/7609/picture373th9.jpg

[TheonlyREDhead 2008 JK]

I ran through some pits saturday with my stock JK.
Here is a pic of my jeep, I couldnt talk the wife into standing at the side of the mud pit while I went through so I got more shots of friends too.

Heres me
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/9310/img2126hq7.jpg

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/8313/img2114ye0.jpg

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/3829/img2132qg8.jpg

here are friends

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/2041/img2088qr9.jpg

This looks cool, not a friend though
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/3286/img2099rc9.jpg

more friends
http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/5964/img2090uz3.jpg

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/7403/img2093ei0.jpg

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/9383/img2089xi0.jpg

Red

[texmexjeeper]

that looks like so much fun:ya::thumbsup:

[troy_boy]

Well, This suks, The photos did not turn out. Out of 6 cameras, here they are...:naw:

Me and my little Nephew in the pits...

http://www.hostdump.com/host/out.php/i45064_089334R12625A.jpg

Keith resting.


http://www.hostdump.com/host/out.php/i45047_089332R12423.jpg

In line.

http://www.hostdump.com/host/out.php/i45063_089334R11413A.jpg

http://www.hostdump.com/host/out.php/i45062_089334R11312A.jpg

http://www.hostdump.com/host/out.php/i45060_089334R1109A.jpg

Punch it...

http://www.hostdump.com/host/out.php/i45054_089333R12423A.jpg

http://www.hostdump.com/host/out.php/i45052_089333R12221A.jpg

http://www.hostdump.com/host/out.php/i45056_089334R1010A.jpg

I did make it about half way...Look how deep it is....


http://www.hostdump.com/host/out.php/i45058_089334R1054A.jpg

I managed to take a couple pics waiting in line...

http://www.hostdump.com/host/out.php/i45066_DVC00031.JPG

http://www.hostdump.com/host/out.php/i45067_DVC00032.JPG

Well, my first run ever basically was a bad deal, But...I still had fun, Till next year, Im pissed. :synister:

[TheonlyREDhead 2008 JK]

Don't worry, there will always be stuff we won't be
able to make it through but it is still alot of fun!!!

Good pics, Bro!!

My mud bog was more like 150 acres 2000 cars
and very little order or guidance. So it is easy
to keep trying the edges of big pits and work
your way to the middle of the pits you feel ok
with. Every pit has a row of 100 vehicles watching.
And there is always 25 big trucks like the one in
your pic pulling people out.

Next spring take a trip to st. louis and I will show
ya how to have fun with 30 pits, trails, obstacles,
and alot of watching some crazy stuff. Its a blast.:ya:

Red

[TheonlyREDhead 2008 JK]

oh yeah very nice looking jeep~~

Red

[troy_boy]

TheonlyREDhead, Thanks for the complement. The mudbog you are describing sounds like a lot more fun though. This one here I guess is a little more serious I guess. Even walking around the pits, the other drivers glare at you...Hehehe. Its more of a competition thing. It didnt look like that years back from the stands though.
Ive had more time to think about it and I should have stayed on the throttle as I did go about half way and the mud gets a little less deep as you go. We started on the deep end. Oh well, Its not over, I will go again.