popper3710

I have a stock 09 with 36k miles on it, just serviced by service center and started to experience the infamous.
I immediately took my Jeep back and the tire guys rebalanced the tires and said everythings good.
I am having the more qualified guys check it out March 3.

What could be my problem? Service centers fault? Cost?

Thanks guys

planman

Read the first couple posts in this thread and watch the videos. Your answers are there.

weekend_junkie

Sage advice. Thank you, planman, for doing what you're doing. I've survived DW before on motorcycles, affectionately called "tank slappers" in that world. If you want a life-changing experience, try that sometime. It's common knowledge across motorsports that a dampener only masks an underlying vulnerability.

I have an '08 JKU with 48,500 miles. I had one event that seems like DW a year ago, but I slowed down so quickly that it didn't go into full out oscillations. Surprizing, I had nothing since and assumed it was mud/dirt in the wheel. Until 4 weeks ago. I had violent front end oscillations at 65mph that would not relent until speeds were dropped below 35-40mph. Carefully drove it straight to the dealer so it would not get further damaged, and then began the "needs dampener / wheel balance" dialogue. I had SPECIFICALLY asked if the front steering was checked and the service manager said "the only thing wrong is the worn dampener". At the time, I was not yet aware of TSB 19-002-12.

After the dampener, I could feel dull/sloppy steering response and it seemed like the new dampener was suppressing the first few DW shakes (leading me to believe that the problem was still there). 4 weeks later, I got the DW right back. When they said the next step was to balance the tires, I argued with them until the mechanic was "suddenly and miraculously" aware of the steering component torque inspection that you have thankfully detailed.

My question now is: has anyone successfully claimed against their dealer for not inspecting according to the TSB? Chrysler already fended off 2 congressmen and has the NHTSA on their side, so what recourse can I have if the dampener "fix" did nothing but cost me $250 and allow my front end to be further damaged? I tried reading all 23 pages of this thread, but not sure if I missed something that would help.

Cheers,
Dan - the weekend_junkie

planman

That is pretty cool.

I had never before read or heard of that TSB.

It isn't quite thorough enough because it does not explain how to check all the components, But it's a good start.

I don't ever recall reading in this thread or similar threads of mine on other forums about that TSB.

I would say that you have a good argument that a further damage was done to your front and due to an improper repair from the dealer, when they had the TSB, they should cover the cost of the additional repairs.

weekend_junkie

Nearly everything I've learned on this issue is from a careful keyword search using Google. Frankly, I have a lifetime powertrain warranty and want to make sure my JKU is running as long as I am alive. I'm only in my 30's, so I figure my Jeep has a long service life ahead of it. I'm just glad I found your thread and hope I can help somehow.

This poster is supposedly a Jeep PR representative regurgitating the content of the TSB...
Steering System Maintenance / Service Bulletin 19-002-12 Steering Shimmy - JeepForum.com

...but I actually found the PDF copy from this ABC News local San Francisco article, along with some choice quotes from the California congresswoman who lead the charge against Chrysler on this. Unfortunately, the progress seems to end with the TSB.
Chrysler acknowledges Jeep "death wobble" in technical service bulletin | abc7news.com

planman

I certainly appreciate your efforts.

I quoted and copied the jeepforum post to my Diagnosing DW threads on other forums, and I plan to edit my first posts on all the the forums to include the TSB number.

Next time I do a Diagnosis video, I'll refer to the TSB.

You probably know that the powertrain warranty does not cover ball joints, control arm or trackbar bushings, drag link or tie rod ends, unit bearings, or steering stabilizers. Those are considered wear items.

If regular maintenance included retorquing suspension bolts at every oil change interval for heavy use jeeps and at every third oil change for light duty use jeeps, the likelihood of Death Wobble is greatly diminished.

If a user of a stock jeep or a modified jeep (assuming correct installation and design of parts) would keep their tires balanced, alignment in check, and periodically retorqued their suspension bolts, the likelihood of Death Wobble is close to zero until maybe their ball joints wear out.

Most Death Wobble starts with improperly torqued front trackbar bolts, which oval the trackbar bracket holes, which cause the steering stabilizer to fail prematurely, while at the same time the knuckle side of the drag link gets damaged, and then the lower ball joints go bad, which damages the unit bearings and front upper control arm bushings, etc., etc.

Some Death Wobble starts with a tie rod adjusting sleeve/collar that gets damaged by hitting a stump or rock offroad, which messes up the alignment and introduces play in the system, etc., etc.

Some is aggravated from tires that are out of balance combined with a poor alignment from hitting a big pothole or something. The additional vibrations result in suspension bolts loosening up and bushings wearing out faster than they otherwise would.

In the end, most all is caused by lack of maintenance, loose or worn parts, and/or improper installation of aftermarket parts.

I'm just glad that there is a TSB that says something more than "balance and rotate tires, do an alignment, and upgrade the steering stabilizer."

The reason I did this thread and the videos is to explain what it is, why it happens, and how to diagnose and fix the source(s) of the problem. Your info on the TSB helps to this end.

weekend_junkie

I mention the warranty because I want the dealer to find this solution. Reading the first bullet point of the TSB where Chrysler blames after-market parts makes me believe they might cite modified suspension geometry causing premature wear of drivetrain components. There are some good independent shops who could likely diagnose the DW as you have, but my concern was if Chrysler would have grounds to void my powertrain warranty unless they did the work. It's really a shame to not have confidence in the OEM for such a significant matter.

For the sake of the warranty alone, I've been very careful to have a dealer perform and document regular service. If checking torque settings were on a list, I would have certainly insisted they be performed.

planman

The powertrain warranty is basically going to be limited to the engine, the transmission, and the transfer case.

If you are going to modify your jeep, you will end up regearing the axles, maybe upgrading to chromoly axle shafts, and upgrading the driveshafts.

You can find a used engine with low miles for about $1200, a transmission for less, and a transfer case for less.

So, in the end, the powertrain warranty is worth maybe $3,000-$3,500, and if you are going to run oversize tires, regear, etc., Chrysler will probably make an excuse not to cover the powertrain anyway.

Certainly, if you have the dealer install crappy OEM replacement ball joints, do all the service, etc, you will spend more than that $3,000-$3,500 over a period of less than 10 years--especially, if they do your regear or installation of a lift, etc.

So, unless you are going to keep the jeep completely stock, the value of the powertrain warranty is less than $0 if you have the dealer do all the service and upgrade installs over a period of 10 years.

Even then, the failure of an engine, transmission, or transfer case that isn't due to abuse, is extremely rare.

Makes sense?

ssg381

This is definitely a "Must Know"… AWESOME write up

weekend_junkie

I'm probably more of an exception on here because I'm hoping to keep this car relatively stock. I used to have a lifted 1988 K5 in the past, lots of fun, but now have moved on. I just want/need something that I can use to get A-to-B no matter the weather, tow a motorcycle, and take 4 people skiing or to the beach. Eventually, my plan was always to keep this car as a backup family truck even if the doors rust and fall off.

So... this rig will stay mostly stock underneath. After all, there's not a lot of trails in NYC.

ANYWAY, wobble with stock suspension geometry is not acceptable. I got my JKU back from the dealer and I asked that they fully inspect the front suspension and document what was done. They only really wrote that they retorqued the steering linkage (track bar, etc.). No mention of what was out of spec, AND no mention of whether wear items were even inspected (as per the TSB). It's not just for folks like us who can understand suspension and know to seek answers in a group like this. Chrysler is seriously dropping the ball for the thousands of people who own a wrangler but dont know mechanicals for themselves.