Its_a_JK

With all the discussion around use of HAM radios off-road (along with the lack of any substantial proliferation) and the limits of CB radios we thought it would be worthwhile to explore what communication options we actually have. In order to do so we enlisted the help of a communications consultant who over the last 30 years has worked to design and implement the current 2 way system in use by the US Forest Service (who better to help with these questions than someone with experience providing life safety systems in the very terrain that we like to wheel in). After 2 months of bouncing ideas, testing equipment and evaluating needs and current infrastructure I thought it was time to bounce some ideas off you guys and see what the "real world" thinks. I appreciate your thoughts and feedback, 4 key points just to help stay on track:

1. I don’t mean for this to replace CB's in average rigs. CB radios are inexpensive easy to use and provide great jeep to jeep communications especially for groups of otherwise strangers who can all "go to channel 10" without problems.

2. I don’t mean to discount HAM radio operators, some of the individuals involved in this discussion are and have been amateur operators for many years. We considered and discussed HAM as a viable option however licensing details precluded it as barriers which would restrict use to greatly.

3. Most people associate GMRS with the little hand held walkie talkies at Wal-Mart. We do not, those are FRS radios and consumer marketing has blended them with GMRS because some share band with GMRS. We are not fans of those toy radios, while they do serve a purpose we don’t believe they are reliable enough for the trail.

4. While the majority of jeepers would be able to appreciate the value of GMRS as we will explain it we don’t feel the majority will adopt it. Cost will be the single largest hindrance but for the serious off-road enthusiast we think it is well worth the investment.


Ok hopefully those points will avoid a lot of unnecessary discussion, now the good stuff. GMRS is General Mobile Radio Service and is a band in the 460 MHz range of UHF reserved by the FCC for licensed civilian use. GMRS uses the same high quality FM radio equipment that Police, Fire and other life safety organizations depends on. GMRS operators can legally transmit with up to 40 watts of power (vs. 5 watts for CB and .5 watts for FRS walkie talkies), and most importantly for us GMRS can and currently do legally use retransmission stations or repeaters.

The licensing aspect of GMRS is one of the best things we have going for us. Like HAM radio the license requirement keeps the "average Joe" off that band keeping the frequencies clear of "Noise". Like HAM radio operators must obtain a license and call sign from the FCC in order to operate GMRS equipment. Unlike HAM NO TEST IS NECESSARY, pay the government $85.00 online and complete a online application and you will be licensed in 24-72 hours. Unlike HAM the license is good for your entire family so spouses and children can all operate the GMRS equipment under a single license with no additional cost. These two aspects we felt where significant reasons to choose GMRS over HAM as the best option.

GMRS equipment out of the box provides up to 4 times the transmission capabilities than CB radios. The clean band and increased quality of the equipment significantly increases the communications capabilities, generally speaking if you can gain altitude (hill top or ridge) you can reliably transmit out to the horizon providing a great emergency communication option. The ability to use and availability of existing private repeaters greatly increases communication options. We are currently reliably transmitting 60-70 miles from trails at elevation and mountain areas back into town using existing repeaters at no cost.

We have identified several repeaters in the Central California region covering some of our best trails. We have also obtained portable mobile repeaters capable of supporting off-road events and areas where necessary. A quick evaluation of the rest of California shows great coverage in both northern and southern California. Most of these existing repeaters and easily accessible assuming users are courteous and professional in their use. We would be willing to work with staging areas to contact and obtain permission for this infrastructure if there is licensed individuals in the staging area interested.

GMRS equipment new runs about $300.00 for good midrange stuff. These are permanently mounted mobile radios similar in form to a good CB radio. Portable radios are available or about $120.00 which by comparison to CB are still very good however we recommend permanently mounted and hard wired mobile radios for reliability. Used equipment is available on EBay almost cheaper than new CB radios but you need to be careful to programming requirements. Generally speaking these radios require some technically ability to program and are not plug and play. Usually you can work something out with the seller when buying something.

This is a long conversation, I look forward to everybodys input. We have allready deployed some equipment in CenCal and proven some capabilities. As soon as the rest of the trails open up we will be identifing needs and most likely move some additional equipment to meet those needs. We look forward to Jeepers in other staging areas getting on board with this, while we go out for seclusion it is nice to know that we have options to communicate with help when needed.

Sapper12b

Do you have any of this equipment already installed in your rig and if so how about some pics ? So if i read your post correctly the GMRS band is its own radio band, so can it cross over and communicate with a CB ?

donnie

The frequencies that GMRS radios use are higher than the freqs that cb uses.
Therefore the two cant communicate with each other.

Its_a_JK

He is absolutly correct the same equipment will not be able to transmit on both the GMRS and CB bands. Some HAM equipment can be made to utilize the GMRS frequencies but that may or may not be a bit sketchy depending on what the equipment is spec'ed for through the FCC.

MD GP

I have a CB in one of my Jeeps. I got it because my 4WD club used to require it for some runs. The main use I get from it is when they're logging and the truckers use CB to avoid collisions. I'm also a ham, and I think I'd depend more on that for emergency communication due to the greater number of repeaters and the potential for long distance simplex on the lower frequencies. I also have a GMRS license, and I've found it very useful for multiple vehicle family trips. Since GMRS is FM, even the inexpensive handhelds perform better than CB. In the past, the GMRS channels were overrun with illegal users of combination FRS/GMRS radios. Now that most every kid has a cell phone, the channels seem to be more open.
I have two 5 watt, repeater capable handheld GMRS units. I'd love to see 4 wheelers adopt GMRS. Decent communications could be had with handheld units requiring no installation. Unfortunately, the FRS/GMRS market may have rendered this radio service nothing more than a toy in many peoples minds. I hope you can convince people on the utility of GMRS.

navin r

Great thread. I've got a CB radio in my Jeep but I've thought about bringing my midland gxt1000's along too. I'd like to see what more serious gmrs radios are reccomended.

Desert Fox

I have used, at one time or another, all of the radio systems previously mentioned. I have a FCC issued CB license, call sign KLX-3850, and I am a HAM, call sign W6PBR. Along the way I explored the FRS/GMRS option and found it to be not much more useful than CB here in SoCal in the off road environment. I went to Glamis and to Ocotillo Wells and turned on the FRS radio and heard nothing but static and screaming kids. It seems that when families camp at these locations the parents, all of the kids and I even think the family dog had and abused a FRS radio. It was awful. So I switched over to the GMRS band and it wasn't much better because the families that had dual band FRS/GMRS radios had switched over to the GMRS band because the FRS band had become so crowded. When I talked to several of the GMRS users I asked them if they had the FCC GMRS license, they all said "no," and had no intention of getting one because it cost too much. Anyway, in much of the SoCal area FRS/GMRS is part of the problem and not necessarily part of the solution. This may not be true in NorCal or other parts of the country. My personal recommendation is that we use whatever works best in our local area, FRS/GMRS or HAM, and use CB as the back-wards compatible system that can be used anywhere in the country. What we are facing here is a microcosm of the 9-11 response teams where everybody showed up to help and there was no common communications system. A team from NY couldn't talk to the teams from NJ or DEL, etc, etc. It was endless. There is no was to mandate that all Jeepers use GMRS or HAM, but we can recommend that no matter what system they use locally, they also have a CB in the Jeep to enable them to talk to Jeepers from other locations. I have attended many Jeep Jamborees where folks showed up with all kinds of comm systems - but we all ended up using CB because it was the common denominator.

Its_a_JK

These are very good points, especially regarding the lack of coordination and existence of the FRS chatter on the GMRS channels. We had not run into as much up here but something worth exploring.

By using "Real" GMRS radios we are able to program tones on channels necessary to access repeaters, these tones can also be programmed on the same simplex frequencies filtering out all the illegal chatter caused by the hand held FRS radios. These tones not only filter traffic without tones (most hand held’s) but also filter traffic on the same frequency with different tones. A multi channel radio for existence may use:

Channel 1 on 462.55 duplex with a tone of 192.8
Channel 2 on 462.55 talkaround with a tone of 192.8
Channel 3 on 462.55 simplex with no tone

In the above scenario channel 1 talks via the repeater for long range communication and filters out all other FRS/GMRS chatter, channel 2 is truck to truck communications and filters out the other FRS/GMRS chatter, channel 3 is truck to truck but would not filter out the chatter. In this scenario I would set to scan channels 1 and 2 ignoring channel 3 unless you choose to go to that channel and talk to those people. Most average GMRS mobiles can run 20 something channels so this setup is realistic and can prove substantial options.
If you wanted to use the inexpensive hand held radios for communicating within the group there is at least one model available that can be programmed to use the repeaters and tones. These are not real prevalent, are a bit more expensive ($80.00 per pair) and require some programming so they would not interfere with your “clean” channels but would give legit licensed users that option.
All this leads to coordination of these channels to have repeaters available and enough users to make it worthwhile. Again this is not for the faint of heart or a CB replacement. And what better place to start the coordination than here, and at the staging area level. I think that if we get a few people interested locally we can begin involving local clubs vendors and public safety organizations.

SiliconTi

Interesting thread. I have a HAM license, and I think a GMRS too (can't remember).

I think it will come down to three things, assuming that you want it to be a nation wide standard: 1) Cost 2) Complexity 3) Availability

1) Cost: at $300 each, vs less than $100 each, people will choose the CB.

2) Complexity: GMRS radios need to be programmed, CBs do not. Also, CBs are channelized - it is easier for the average Joe to say "Go to 10" than a specific freq. (unless programmed).

3) Availability: the radios are not readily available at a store you can walk into and pickup.

The solution I have seen is the (illegal) use of Marine radios on the trails.

In a perfect world, GMRS or 2m would be the best solution, but as they say...

Its_a_JK

Very good points, I would not expect to ever replace CB it is quick and easy and cheap. We do think it would be a good supplement for the hardcore wheelers who like to wheel hard and would appreciate the ability to call out as well as communicate amongst themselves without the CB noise.

We are continuing to work on this, have found some relatively competitive priced high quality radios and are establishing a programing guide for California.