Winch reality
 

Has anyone actually witnessed an 8000Lb winch not be enough to recover a 4 dr JK? I see lots of post about going big when selecting a winch, but is it reality or hype? :thinking::thinking::thinking:

I have not witnessed a 8000lb not able to get her dun. But I have seen video's of one not able to pull out another stuck vehicle that was in mud soup. heck it took two winches for the few times 1 couldn't get it done and they struggled.

Great write-up I found before buying my winch. Don't know anything about the company or their website, but the detail description of what a winch rating really equates to is great. I ended up going with the Smittybilt XRC8 because of price and rationale...how often will I really need it, does winching speed matter to me, how much weight will I really be pulling if I'm all but able to get over/out, do I care about extra features like wireless controls or on board air, where do I wheel that I'd attach to, is there usually a buddy with a strap versus a winch, etc...

http://www.gregsmithequipment.com/Winches_s/31.htm&click=5541?gclid=CJrB3Y3K-5ACFQGdPAodSGR-0w

Its reality...not hype.

I've seen sucking mud that took more than an 8K winch could deliver, and more than a 9K winch could deliver, etc.

Its all a question of degree.

A 4 dr JK has a GVWR of roughly 5,500 lb. The rule of thumb, is to select a winch with at LEAST 1.5 x the GVWR of the rig...which would be 8,250 lb....or roughly, a little bigger than an 8k winch.

That is the MINIMUM...meaning, it will work a lot of the time, but NOT ALL the time.

The primary concern is mud...the kind that sucks your boots off, etc....is the worst, but good 'ol Pine Barrens bogs are more than enough to suction a rig hard enough to make its diff's anchors.

IE: 12" of the wrong muck can capture the bottom of your diff, and make it impossible to drag you out w/o WAAAY more force than you'd think.

This is WHY you hear all of the stories about multiple rigs using all available winches to recover someone.

In rocks, if you get your face to a ledge, and need to be pulled over it...its harder than actually just lifting you straight up....and if you add some craigs and crannies to catch axles or tires, etc...well, the forces can add up quickly there too.

Frankly - the primary limiting factor on a JK winch, is the winch RATING of the bumper you attach the winch too.

Most can't HANDLE a winch over ~ 9,500 lb...so if a 9,500 lb capacity winch can't recover you...its a moot point after that anyway.

Also remember that a winch has a spool that takes up the line....and, it acts like a gear...so the more line on the spool, the thicker the diameter of the effective gear....and the LESS weight it can pull.

This means that the RATED pull of your winch is ONLY applicable for that first wrap onto the spool....once you've gotten a layer of line OVER the first one, you CANNOT pull as much anymore....and the cheaper winches tend to lose power very quickly....so your 8k winch for the first wrap might be a 4k winch on the last wrap, etc.

:D

So NO winch is going to be able to pull you out 100% of the time if you go where power is required to recover you.

SOME winches will have the power to recover you 100% of the time if you never go where power is required.

The more powerful the winch, the higher your chances of recovery success.

If you ALWAYS wheel with others who also have winches...you can hedge a bit..if YOU are counting on YOUR winch to rescue a bud, or yourself...decide HOW sure you want to be that you will be ABLE to.

Then pick a winch.

:D

Teej,

I agree with many of your points. I think that in cases where a multiple winches were used is not really the difference between an 8k and 9.5k winch.


But bottom line, is the 8k gonna leave you SOL when a 9.5 would save the day?

YES, its happened many times.

I have a Warn 9.5 XP....its rated at 9,500 lb...and a lot of people I wheel with have 8K winches - 10K winches.

I have had SEVERAL occasions over the years where the 8k winch, or even the 9K winch..just could not do the recovery....but the 9,500 lb winch DID do the recovery.

A snatch block helps if you have the line length to go there and back to use it...and the patience to drop to half line speed, etc....but, in the Pines for example...you HAVE to be far enough away from the stuck rig so YOU are on solid footing...and adding a snatch block is often just not realistic.

So, SURE - its all about the odds, but, the heavier your capacity, the better your odds of doing the recovery.

I HAVE been called at 3 AM or whatever to go out and save some sorry buds' ass from some hole...BECAUSE their 8k winch left them stranded, and the Jersey Devil was out, and they were freaking out that they were going to die if I didn't hurry, etc.

:D

I also carry snatch tackle, tree savers, etc...so I can set up off off angle and compound recoveries if I have to....but I usually do not.

I definately think that people need to winch wisely. Use levergae and pulley's (snatch blocks) to increase the pulling force of your winch.

I personally like a 12k winch. They run slower but pulls less amps, and the first wrap off the drum is usually in the 8500lb range depending on the winch. The old superwinch s9000's were actually a 12k winch, and most 8274's will pull near 12k. Still though, a winch is better than no winch in any situation. Keep in mind though that using a snatch block is only good if you have something good to attach it too. Putting it back to the bumper your winch is on may not be the best bet as the bumper may not be designed to handle the 15k or 18k force being put on it. Keep safety in mind at all times.

Jim

AND - IF the line DOING the pulling...on the end attached to the rig being recovered....is strong enough to handle the load as well......after all, if that much force is involved...its STILL applied through the cable.

:D

What the heck is a Jersey Devil - some kind of mugger...?:bleh:

BUT - we ARE assuming that the RATED pull was inadequate, which is WHY we used the tackle to double the forces applied.

So - the tackle between the 9,000 lb being applied by the winch is subjected to a leveraged force of 18,000 lb...etc.

If TWO 9k winches are pulling on ONE tow hook on the recovered vehical....that's 18,000 lb of force pulling the vehical out.

Also - if one end of the line is on the stuck rig....the line from the pulley to the rig is what is applying the pulling force....ALL the pulling force.

To truly share the load...you need a line from the winch, with it tackle line looped on the recovered rig...at two points.

If ALL the recovery force ends up applied via ONE recovery point...THAT point is being pulled with the DOUBLED force...not half the force.

:D


Remember - if it takes 18,000 of force to unstick the rig...SOMETHING has to be pulling with that much force....with TWO points on the recovery rig to split the load, then each point is pulled with 9k in that example, so the entire rig IS pulled with 18,000 of force, etc.

A rig with 92' of line - assuming it needs to keep some wrapped on the spool for traction, some tackle spool wrap, etc...has a less than 40' recovery range....not even 3 jeep lengths.

The winches equipped with 50' of line are limited to barely ONE jeep length using a tackle recovery, etc.

And so forth.

-------------------

So - if there's enough line to reach all the way there and back with a double recovery point set-up....the line load is shared.......

......if the line was too short, and a recovery block is used with a single line back to the stuck rig....THAT single line is bearing the ENTIRE load.

:D

I am one of those instances where an 8k winch was not enough! My 15 year old Ramsey 8000 just couldn't break the suction that my JK had created in the mud. That is where a snatch block came in handy! I even have it on youtube, it is the second part of the video. My girl friend was driving while I shot video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsKKAwiovZU

I still use my 15 year old Ramsey to this day, and it hasn't failed me yet. If you get a 8k winch, just carry a snatch block in your cargo hold in the rear of the JK. I also have a 3 year old Warn 9.5 Ti that has only been used once sitting on the front of my '78 CJ-5.

I went wheeling this weekend and I got to use my 9.5ti for the first time. I was climbing a rocky ledge with washouts. My passenger rear tire ended up sliding off into the huge gutter. So my entire right side dropped into the hole to only be supported by my diff on Mopar rock rub rails (money well spent) supporting the Jeep.

There were no anchor points in site and going back was not an option as it would have dragged my Jeep into the bottom of the pit. Therefore, the only option I had was to winch to another Jeep at the top of the hill about 100 feet away. Once hooked up, I was pulling him to me. He had to pull against me to properly anchor himself. Even then the angle was pulling me over to my passenger side. So, 2 guys had to pull me down on my driver’s side for me not to flip.

During this entire time, that Warn was pulling HARD. I could hear how big of a bind that winch was in. But, it never quit pulling. I do not know that an 8000lb would have saved me as I could not have used a snatch block due to the distance and resources.

Thus the winch was well worth the price and pulled like a champ.

I have never heard of that one, though the price looks good. If you are going to go with a cheaper winch, you should look into Champion. My friend had one on the front of his TJ and he used it a few times and he liked it. They run $400 at TSC.

A winch is like a steak-- you get what you pay for. I have only had experiences with the Warn xd9000i and the 8274. I have never seen an instance that these winches could not handle and rarely seen a snatch block used. I used my 9000 on my Cj to pull a 78 FJ40 stuck in a hole with mud all the way to the top of 42" TSL swampers. It wasn't fast but it pull the FJ out, even bent the FJ's leaf springs backwards.

I know the 8274 can be pricey, if you can find an old one they are very easy to rebuild.

The brake in the drum only generates heat when LOWERING a load, NOT winching one in....so, as that's not a very common practice, a synthetic line would be OK, especially if you use a version with a heat wrap for the first spool layer. You can pour water over it as well, etc.... if you ARE using the winch to lower a load w/o heat protection.

MOST of the cheapo winches are private labelled versions made by other companies...the Smittybilt XRC's were plastic geared MileMarkers for a while, and then T-Max re-badges, etc.

Sometimes they use the same motor for ALL of the weight ratings....so the 6K, 8K, 10K, 16K winches might ALL use the same motor...but the GEARING will be lower and lower to be able to have the leverage to pull the heavier and heavier loads, at proportionally slower and slower speeds, etc.

In chort, the Chicago Electric from Harbor freight, the Smittybilt, etc...may essentially be the same winch, with minor cosmetic changes.

People who have opened these winches up have found parts and wiring, etc...with other winch maker labels inside.

:D

Price Point marketing...the "Any Winch is better than NO winch" market has always been alive and well....and, if they have realistic expectations, happy enough as well.

:D

Lots of good info in this thread. I wish I'd known more of the hidden namebrands sold as generic before buying, although I have no complaints so far.

I went with the Smittybilt XRC8 because of the pricepoint ($286 + free shipping from winchdepot.com). I almost went with one I saw on ebay that was a 12,500# that sold for under $425 including shipping, but I couldn't get any information on a brand or sueto-brand name...was an inventory blowout deal...and was a seller I had a little concern about. Also check CraigsList, your local papers, local shops...you never know what you might find laying around.

Reliable is good, but I think the best argument I read on here asks are you wheeling with others, or are you reliant on only yourself to get out of a jam? Over-prepared is great, but if funds are an issue...ask yourself "what do I really need in the environment I wheel in and with the company that's with me?"

i wish that all my 1000 posts together were as informative as 1 of TEEJ's

An 8000 lb. winch should be fine for you. The only reason I bought a 9000 lb winch is so that I have a little more power when to recover my friends' bloated Hummer H2:rotflmao2:

Depends on so much where you use it. 8k will do well on dry lands most of times but if you do mud and swamps like me it´s 12.5k, slow but strong. I had ABT 10k and Warn 9.5ti on my previous rigs and on same routes as before i have noticed there is a real difference on certain spots and less often snatch block needed.

Hey Beancounter, Honestly, both would do the job. Personally, i would go with the 9000k lb, only because its only a couple hundred more.

I dont know of any bumpers that accept an M8274, so thats not even an issue with the JK even though it is an awesome winch

As discussed...8K is the MINIMUM....and will recover you or your bud most of the time if you do not wheel were you will get more stuck than that.

People who DO wheel more in tougher situations WILL have experiences that tell then 8K is too light FOR THEM.

People who wheel where 8k has been adequate, will have no experiences where they needed more than that...so its right for THEM.

You merely need to decide what group you might want to be in...harder-core/sucking muck runners, or light duty dirt climb/un-high spotting fire trail/lt wheeling runners.

:D

There is no advantage to carrying more winch than you need, or your bumper can handle....so there is no shame in being in the light weight winch group if the description fits.


Analogously...there are people who would be constantly disappointed by an 8k winch, and getting one would NOT be a good idea, etc.

--------------------------------------

Most winches load rating is with 1 spool of line around the drum. A good way to compare is to look at the specifications about how much load you will loase with each additional spool around the drum. Also if you use a snatch block and bring the line back to the winching vehicle you have just doubled your pull rating, and if you use another snatch block then you are tripling??? the pulling power. If you think that your winch may not be powerful enough just keep using pulleys and it will encrease the power. I have seen where the military has done this and 3 guys have pulled a humvee out of the sand that was burried up to the frame rails.

Speed.

If you use the same motor, and need to pull more weight with it, you gear down to handle it...but that means more weight, but at a slower pace.

__________________________________

Littlejon

Most winches load rating is with 1 spool of line around the drum. A good way to compare is to look at the specifications about how much load you will loase with each additional spool around the drum. Also if you use a snatch block and bring the line back to the winching vehicle you have just doubled your pull rating, and if you use another snatch block then you are tripling??? the pulling power. If you think that your winch may not be powerful enough just keep using pulleys and it will encrease the power. I have seen where the military has done this and 3 guys have pulled a humvee out of the sand that was burried up to the frame rails.

_________________________________

Again - the cavet is that to double the leverage, you need twice the line....or you end up with ONE LINE being pulled on at a potentially overloaded weight, etc.

If I have a stuck rig in muck 100' into a bog...I need 200' of line to double the pull....no spools cary that....most are closer to 100' in capacity.

So, lets say I have a 125' of line to use, but, I need to triple the run....I have to use my line to go 3 round trips to use a triple snatch block.

3 round trips is 6 single trips...so 125'/6 trips = ~ 20' range, etc.

In short, buy the time to spend $100/block and tackle set X 3 sets = $300, you could have just gotten a stronger winch.

:D

It also takes time to SET-up a compound recovery, even a single block set up for an off angle recovery is time consuming to do right.

A couple of weekends ago, one of the Cherokee's died on Yellow Jacket at Rausch Creek, in the middle of an off camber rock garden...and we had to turn it around with a multiple K-Turn, and then pull it down off the rocks...PITA to do it, but there was no choice...and we liked te guy too much to just leave him there, etc. :D

I don't know about YOUR wheeling trips...but loosing an hour or so to recover someone really steals from the time available to have fun, and, can kill the entire day if there are multiple stucks, etc.

A cheapo 2' per minute winch under load can really only pull for about a minute, and then it has to cool for a few minutes, rinse/repeat.

Lets say you have a 100 recovery...at 2' per minute...that's 50 minutes of pulling!...add the 3 minutes of coold down or so BETEEN those individual minutes of pulling, and that's ANOTHER 150 minutes down the drain.
:eek2:

If I use a decent winch with a even 10' per minute under load speed, and a 100% duty cycle so it can do the entire pull in one shot...that's 10 minutes instead of a few hours.

Time is money....how much is the speed worth to you?

For me...the Speed is WORTH it. If it was "Stay stuck in the mud vs get out, eventually", well, even the cheapo is worth it....

..But god help me I would NOT want to be in THAT group of stuck mud rats.

:D

The other isssue on long pulls with a cheapo...watch the amp hrs on your battery....a pull at a few hundred amps hrs that takes a few minutes is FAR less draining that an agonizing winch-a-thon that takes hours of battery drain, etc.

Food for thought.

:D

just get an M8274 with the 2 motor conversion :) All problems solved

They both use a 4.6 hp motor, but the HP has 156:1 gearing....and the HD uses 261:1 gearing....so, same motor, but lower gearing to pull 12k lb vs 9.5K.

:D

The other differences are the thicker line that has to be shorter - as the spools are the same size....so the HP has 125', the HD has 80'.

The compressors are the same.

They both weigh 100 lbs.

The HP is faster than the HD.

Essentially...the HD is a good idea if you have a 8k lb rig, etc....and Need a lot more pulling capacity.

The HP is better for JK's, as the 125' is a more useful line length, the extra speed is nice, and the bumpers can't handle 12k lb anyway.

:D

I'm getting ready to buy a winch and have looked at the 8274. It's expensive but apparently worth it. It was discussed on another forum and folks mentioned that it is from pre-bean counter days and built to a different standard. And also that it's 8000 rating is very, very conservative. And of course some mentioned the two motor conversion; but I was unable to find any info on that conversion.

But is a mute point? Is there any JK bumper that will accept one - I haven't found one yet? The big differenc is that the 8274 is a front mounted winch as opposed to bottom mounted. Is there a way to adapt? It would certainly look old school on a JK.

I am going with an 8,000 pound Warn on my 2 door Rubicon.

I have a 9,500 pound winch on my F350 crewcab, longbox diesel truck, and find it to be enough.

So am confident that 8,000 is lots for a Jeep that weighs just 4,100 pounds.

As a side note.
If you find that mud suction is holding you back, put it in low range, and spin the tires as you get winched out.
The tire spin breaks most of the suction caused in the mud, and allows it to be pulled much easier.
I see lots of guys just dragging their 4x4's out with the winch, and not getting any help from tire spin.
I figure especially with the low 4:1 transfer case ratio, and the low first gear of the 6 speed manual tranny I have that i can easily spin the tires in mud, and that will make winching fairly easy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feq-J8wzG00

Here ya go. This is a short video of the twin motor conversion. Only practical pretty much if you are in competitions where every second matters. But its pretty cool

WOW :eek2::eek2::eek2: that is fast.......:thumbsup:

I believe what he means is that even though the Smittybilt winch has the Smittybilt badge on it, it's made by another company.

Much like the Tabor 9k doesn't have a Warn badge but it is owned and built by Warn.

Companies do this all of the time. All of the old Dell printers were Lexmarks in Dell disguise.

Speaking of which, what is the general consensus on the Tabor 9k. Being built by Warn I'm think it's good stuff and the price is very reasonable, $460 shipped. But I'm afraid of one of those, "you get what you pay for" situations.

Great info guys, gives me a lot to think about

WTF? time is money? out 4 wheeling? It sound like my winch is bigger than your winch thingie here. Yeah...Warn makes a 8k winch that just cannot do the job. LOL! Oh yeah ....we don't have mud out here LOL! so what do I know...You could pitch in and have a full blown tow truck follow you......or maybe a helicopter to lift you out. If ya need it....get it. If you don't then.....err... don't.