Arson

The JK with stock wheels, no spacer, no lift

32" tires: no rubbing
33" tires: some rubbing can be cured with minor trimming of the stock airdam (applies to 12.5" wide tire)
35" tires: don't try (12.50" wide tire will rub without aftermarket wheels or wheel spacer)


The JK with stock wheels, 1 1/2" wheel spacer, no lift, Bushwacker flat-top flares

32" tires: no rubbing
33" tires: no rubbing
35" tires: rubbing that can be cured with trimming pinch-seam, possibly no trimming if you're sticking to the street only...watch those speed bumps[IMG]file:///C:/Users/KMORRI~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif[/IMG]
37" tires: don't try

The JK with stock wheels, 1 1/2" wheel spacer, 2" lift

33" tires: no rubbing
35" tires: some rubbing that can be cured with minor trimming of stock airdam, and fender flares/liners. Pinch seam trim recommended.
37" tires: don't try

The JK with stock wheels, 1 1/2" wheel spacer, 3" lift

33" tires - no rubbing, looks silly (lots of space between fenders and tires)
35" tires - no rubbing, trimming of pinch seam recommended
37" tires - minor rubbing with stock flares. No rubbing with flat flares. Proper bumpstop length and pinch seam trim necessary.

The JK with stock wheels, 1 1/2" wheel spacer, 4" lift

33" tires: no rubbing - entirely too much lift for the tire size
35" tires: no rubbing
37" tires: some rubbing (minor), none with flat flares - proper bumpstop length and pinch seam trim neccessary
38" tires: be careful - flat flares necessary, trimming necessary
39" tires: don't try without 1" body lift, trimming, and flat flares

The 1.5" wheel spacer will work as an alternative to new wheels, but many will recommend the replacement of your stock wheel as a safer alternative. This is an ongoing debate; regardless of your opinion on the matter, when buying a NEW AFTERMARKET WHEEL for a 12.5" wide tire, 4.7" backspacing is the MAXIMUM acceptable amount of backspacing to avoid using wheel spacers. 4.5" is recommended, and 3.75-4" is necessary for 14.5" wide tires.

MORE ON WHEELS - ADDED FROM DELETED POST BELOW

A Wider rim width will not effect the proximity of the tire to the steering components, sway bar end links, or fender flares/liners/wind dam - only a change in tire width will do this. A wider narrower rim will produce a ballooning effect on a wider tire, while the wider 8-10" rims will produce a flatter sidewall on the wider tires. The stock 7.5" wide rim is sufficient for a 12.5" wide tire, but as you mentioned, the 6" backspacing will cause rubbing in the rear on the swaybar end link, and rubbing on the front at full lock.

This is where the 1.5" wheel spacer comes into play, again as you already have mentioned. It effectively creates a total backspacing of 4.5". For that matter, a 1.25" wheel spacer will work as well, but it pushes the max limit for backspacing out of many peoples' comfort zones at 4.75".

The wheel spacer is argued as an inexpensive bandaid fix to make tires work - in all reality, it is not inexpensive. A hub centric wheel specer set of TWO will run about $100, or $200 for a full set of four. You're well on your way to an inexpensive set of steel rims at this cost, and you haven't yet factored in the cost of the stock tire holder extension bracket for your larger spare tire, or the extended bumpstops for the tailgate, or the tailgate reinforcement kit. The proponents of wheel spacers will argue that for years and mile upon mile, they have run spacers with no issues, and many have. But trust the first time you see a wheel spacer sheer off of the hub on the trail, you will second guess the setup[IMG]file:///C:/Users/KMORRI~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.gif[/IMG]

When looking towards aftermarket wheels, you have 3 things to consider:

1. Are the hub or lug centric? Hub centric is ideal, knowing that your wheel perfectly centers itself around the hubs center without force from the lugs to properly allign.
2. What is the backspacing? I consider 4.7" the max allowable, but would suggest looking for wheels with 4-4.5" if you ever will consider going wider than a 12.5" tire.
3. What is the rim width? Again, the stock wheel at 7.5" wide is sufficient for a 12.5" wide tire, but if you're going aftermarket, look at 8-10". The 8" width will be great for 10.5-13.5" wide tires. 14.5-15.5" tires should probably be mounted to 10" wide rims. Above and beyond the aforementioned "ballooning" effects, or lack thereof, a wider tire on too narrow a rim will be more prone to breaking from the bead at lower pressures.

Obviously - we also have wheel and tire weight to consider. Steel rims are heavier than alloys, D and E rated tires are heavier and stiffer than C rated tires. Take all of this into consideration. Many of the tires for our 17" wheels are D rated and D rated only. Good for the heaviest Wranglers to date, but not as plyable of a sidewall (doesn't bend and conform to the trail as well at lower PSI as the C rated tires we ran on our CJs, YJs, TJs). Avoid E rated tires if possible - you're not pulling a 10K pound trailer with your JK, and if you are - hook your GoPro up to the JK so I can witness the catastrophe [IMG]file:///C:/Users/KMORRI~1/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif[/IMG]

FITMENT OF LARGER TIRE ON THE STOCK CARRIER

It is tough to determine whether a larger tire will fit on the stock carrier without adjustments being made, because of the various different sizes of tires available, and the descrepencies between the actual inflated size and the advertised size of a given tire. Both diameter and width effect the fitment of a larger tire to the stock carrier. A wider tire will make contact with the tailgate/carrier before the stock carriers lugs have come through the STOCK WHEEL. A larger DIAMETER can make contact with the stock rear bumper.

These Guidelines are generally speaking, and not set in stone, and each assume a tire width of 12.5":

33" tire on stock wheel - will not make contact with the stock bumper, will make contact with tailgate/stock carrier. Requires a stock tire carrier extension bracket
35" tire on stock wheel - same issue as the 33, but now with the possibility of contact with the stock rear bumper as well, depending upon actual inflated size
37"+ tire - DO NOT TRY

resharp001

Anvil is talking about the tire being centered in the wheel well (for clarity), and not the axle being centered under the jeep. If you don’t have adjustable arms to move the axle back, the axle is going to be slightly forward in the wheel well and putting the tire much closer to the forward pinch seam and much more likely to make contact with the front of the wheel well. Ideally the axle moves back and inch or so….which will taking you down the course of a few other little issues to address.

If you’re referring to the little rubber piece stuffed up in the frame side, that’s not really a rear bump. You’re not running any additional bumpstop down on the axle? That RE 3.5” lift should have come with some metal blocks for the axle side……not saying that would be enough, but still, should have been included.

+1 The cost kinda stinks, but these are nice bumps and adjustable up to 4” in 1” increments.


IMO, you have 2 issues if you really wanted a proper set up for 3.5” lift. You’re axle really should move back, and you really need to cycle your suspension to determine proper bumpstop to run. Bumpstop is not a one size fits all type thing. Any increase in tire size or shock length is going to require reconsidering proper bumpstops to keep your shocks protected and keep your tire from fully stuffing.

prelucir

A lot of great help. Thank you folks. To me is looks like the axle is center in the wheel well, but the tire is much closer to the front than the back.



Now that I look at that photo, perhaps it can go back a bit. I do have adjustable arms. If I crank on them and bring them out an inch, do I need to have an alignment expert look at them?


I am not sure why, but when I upload this photo, the forum rotates the picture. Anyhow, if you tilt your head to the left you will get my gist. The plastic above the pinch seam, on the inside of the edge, is where the rubbing occurs. Thus supporting the thought that if the wheel is moved back one inch, the rubbing would stop.



Again, the photo was rotated. As you can see, the only thing I have that resembles a bump stop is the little stock yellow rubber dodad. I am sure I can add a bump stop.

Its the cranking on the arms and pushing the axle back an inch that worries me.


Thanks,
John

resharp001

Nah, you have some bumpstop there, not to mean that it is correct, but it's the raised pad that is on the axle....not the little yellow spongy thing in the frame side.

To me, the axle needs to be pushed back via adjustable control arms which would give you a little added clearance at the front of the wheel well. Having lifted it 3.5" (and possible netting more ACTUAL lift), you are actually narrowing your wheelbase a tad unless you push the axles back apart....ie, body goes up and the fixed length factory arms pull the axles closer together. You have to lengthen the lower control arms a bit to push the axles back apart. IMO, this is where so many of the 3.5" lifts fall in to an "incomplete" bucket. In an effort to keep costs down, they cut corners. Consumers get sucked in by the sticker price only to figure out later on down the road the deficiencies.

Note that should you choose to add adjustable control arms in the rear to move the axle back, you will then create some clearance issues with your rear sway bar (the links will lean forward and hit your upper control arm mounts axle side), which is remedied by moving the sway bar back and inch....which creates interferance with the factory exhaust most of the time.....which means addressing the muffler.

Not to sound like a jerk, but I'm a little curious. You've got a good bit invested in those axles. Is there any reason you're not replacing the lift with something that might be a little higher quality that an RE 3.5", or at least haven't added a full set of quality control arms to help get the axles situated properly? A quality set of 8 control arms will go a long ways to fixing your woes in regards to this issue and your caster thread.

prelucir

I did not want to change the lift or sink anymore money into this Jeep. I knew nothing when I bought the Jeep and rolled it into 4 Wheel parts and said I think I want to lift it. They lifted it, re geared it and put a locker in it for me. All was good until I started learning how to use the Jeep and wanted to do more with it. This past year in Moab I learned about the Rubi locker (which is not available on a standard) and was told that I could install that and that alone would assist me nicely in getting over the larger obstacles. Then I talked to a ton of venders and learned about larger axles and the Atlas TC. I went down this road because I bought the axles from a neighbor who told me they were only a couple of years old. According to the shop, Dynatrac changed a bit of their design 4-5 years past. Now that I have learned how crooked my neighbor is, I am sure these axles are old. And he sold them to me for 6K, which has since turned into 8+K. The front axle needs to be re geared because the pinon gear has a chip in almost every tooth. This dude screwed me hard and then kept my old axles and will not pay for them. As I type this, i can feel my blood pressure climbing. What should have been a great and fun upgrade to my Jeep has turned into a huge nightmare. I have talked to many shops and get wildly different opinions, and prices, from everyone. That is why I am posting here. I have discovered how much I do not know about Jeeps and wrenching. I am now at the point were I just want to get it done and any cost. However, when the shops talk to me, they do not tell me everything I need done to "finish" the Jeep. Instead, they tell me bits and pieces to get me to commit to the work and then take my money. Afterwards, things are not complete as new crap pops up, and then I have to address it. I am supper angry because I broke my golden rule "never buy used." Especially when you do not know what you are doing. Of course, you do not know what you do not know.

Okay, off my soap box. I could go on and on about how this cat screwed me and now I am left trying to put my Jeep back together. My end cost is going to be more than if I would have done all brand new with one shop.

The guy I bought the axles from actually swapped them out for me. Course I paid dearly in the long run. Anyhow, I took it into the shop to have the TC installed and new drive shafts built and installed. As well, the pinch seam trimmed and diff fluid changed. Now, the shop suggests that I put on better shocks and springs. He suggests Fox Shox 2.0 with reservoir and stiffer springs. I cannot recall the brand. He did suggest that down the road I should add a long arm kit. So far, I have replaced much of what I have done to the Jeep in the first place. Making that all wasted money. I am quite frustrated right now.

If adjusting my control arms will improve my caster, and adjusting the rear control arms will eliminate my rub and putting in stiffer springs and nicer shocks will fix my problems, I am in. But can I stop there or do I need the long arm kit to enjoy my Jeep off road. What else do I need to add to "finish" my Jeep? I added a Currie antirock as well. I now have an SPOD with ARB lockers front and rear. (I have to say, I am very impressed with ARB vs. E locker.) Oh yeah, I will add the bump stops. I hate to limit my travel, but I would like more shock absorbed when I come off of large obsticales.

So, I want to do trail ratings of 7 and 8 in Moab. Other than improving my driving skills, is there any other modifications I need to do to my Jeep?

Thanks for all the help. I appreciate all I can get. I know once the Jeep is done I will put this summer behind me and enjoy some wheeling.

-John

TheDirtman

You don't need long arms and they are not really going to help with off road, they will give you a better on road ride. Some front control arm relocation brackets might help you. It would be good to find out what your caster set up on the aftermarket axles actually is. Dynatrac makes more then just jeep axles. Brackets may need to be relocated.
You can also trim a lot more off that pinch seam for free.
You are way overbuilt for what seems the experience you have. I can't believe you were talked into an atlas and don't understand the benefits of adjustable control arms. You would have been better off to find a stock rubicon model and just have traded for it. You have been taken advantage of and should be pissed but you are where you are now. Your coils should be fine and if you don't like the ride of the shocks then swap them out. Stiffer coils will not prevent rubbing it will just take more force to compress them creating a rougher ride and increase coil unloading during seem climbs or decent. I would find a new shop though that is not trying to push stuff on you.

Adjustable arms on the rear are likely going to push the tire into the rear tub area and rub there. As you stuff the wheel the wheel moves backwards. Trim more out of the front pinch seam.

prelucir

I am not mad about the Atlas. I was not talked into it, I sought it out. It won't be too much longer and I will use it to the fullest potential. If my Jeep were complete now, I would already be practicing with it. I love the fact that I can put on axle in neutral and one in low. Also, what bothers me, I spent a ton of money lifting, gearing and so on in the first place. Now most of that money is a waste as it is getting replaced with upgraded equipment. That kinda sucks to loose all that money. What I am getting at is, had I put a Rubicon TC in the Jeep, it would not be long before I would have change it again. More wasted money.

I am angry about the jerk that screwed me on the axles. Over all, I have everything I was after. (Unfortunately, some of it needed repair.) I would, however, been much happier if I would have simply ordered brand new and completed it all with the shop that I finally agreed to use. I do trust them and think that they are doing a good job for me. As well, it would have all been completed in less than two weeks vs, not having a Jeep for the past three months or so.

I just got off the phone with the shop. They are going to check my caster angle. I believe this cat, he basically said to me most everything I read in the write up page.

My pinch seam no longer rubs since it has been cut. The plastic above the pinch seams on the insides of both wheel wells is what rubs. I think the bump stops will fix that. I do plan on going with the Fox Shox and possibly swapping out the springs to JKS Manufacturing. This is not my daily driver. In fact, my Jeep is a 2010 and I have 26k miles on it. I mostly drive around town and go off road with it. I now want to do more extreme trails, that is what I getting ready for.

Thanks so much for all the opinions and advice. I feel much more confident about what I am hearing from this cat at the shop as he is echoing much of the advice that has been given to me in these threads.

-John

resharp001

With that set up, you likely need to trim more pinch seam behind the plastic inner liner. Most people will cut in to the seam leaving the seam in "tabs", and then pound the tabs over with a hammer. the plastic liner there is hiding the seam. In general....you need additional clearance. You'll probably end up having to scrap the inner liners back there in order to trim the seam.

It sounds like an extremely frustrating experience in general. Sorry it hasn't worked out as seamless as planned. I'd still say that the axle could move back some more (based on the pics), using proper bumps to keep from stuffing the tire completely in to the upper pinch seam.....but Dirtman disagrees. It looks like the kit (per the other thread) has fixed length lower arms and so it is where it is with current equipment. Cut more pinch seam up and in to the well (not just down at that corner) and see if it helps with clearance.

Using your picture.....this is what I have trimmed (for reference).....sorry for the rudimentary editing.

prelucir

https://www.jk-forum.com/forums/modi...-lifts-288269/

I found this to be helpful, thank you.

prelucir

Where you put the red marker is where the rubbing occurs. I will look at the arms again. I thought they were adjustable.