Lift kit opinions/ choices
12-18-2018, 05:57 AM
#11
JK Jedi
12-18-2018, 07:47 AM
#12
JK Jedi
In regards to your point about caster correction, we all know there are 3 most common ways used to adjust for caster in lifts in the 2-3in height range. Mopar is one of the few that includes a caster correction solution with their lift kit which doesn't include replacement control arms. OME does as well include cam bolts with some of their lift kits. Yes, cam bolts are the least desired solution for caster correction but one is actually provided with the kit and they work. It's the least expensive one as well, to not impact the price of the kit. What does Synergy, AEV, TF, MC and RK provide for caster correction for their aftermarket lifts that don't come with replacement control arms? Nothing? They leave it up to the customer to either know they need to add caster correction in addition to the lift, or they wait for someone to install their lift as is and then wait for them to figure out on their own that something doesn't feel right....and wait for them to then come back to the shop and then say, "Oh....well that's because you need to purchase our sold separately geo correction brackets or replacement control arms."
Mopar includes the cam bolts with their lift because we all know caster correction is needed and it will be installed by dealerships and purchased by less knowledgeable individuals who are unaware of the necessity for caster correction. Mopar also provides replacement control arms for their 2in and 4in lift kit as well if you wanted to use those instead of the cam bolts for caster correction. They just are not included with the kit just like all the aftermarket companies with kits in this price range and most don't know about them because Mopar isn't out here on the Jeep forums pimping them out like all the aftermarket companies to make you aware of them. Like you said...you need to compare apples to apples when pointing out about the included DS with the Mopar kit. That goes for control arm replacements as well and Geo brackets. What does Synergy, TF, MetalCloak, and RK provide for a replacement front drive shaft? They don't. They don't make drive shafts. They tell everyone to go see Tom Woods or Adams if they want to replace the drive shaft and forget to tell them "and BTW, you will need to regularly maintain those drive-shafts to make it last while Mopar works with Dana to provide a maintenance free replacement driveshaft because they understand not everyone wants to crawl under their Jeep on the weekends to maintain parts they know nothing to very little about while also providing one stop shopping. If you don't want to purchase a drive shaft with your 2in or 4in Mopar lift, you don't have to. They also make versions of their 2in and 4in lift which don't include the drive shaft.
Mopar adjustable control arms for their 2in and 4in lifts
https://www.jegs.com/i/Mopar-Perform...55420/10002/-1
Mopar includes the cam bolts with their lift because we all know caster correction is needed and it will be installed by dealerships and purchased by less knowledgeable individuals who are unaware of the necessity for caster correction. Mopar also provides replacement control arms for their 2in and 4in lift kit as well if you wanted to use those instead of the cam bolts for caster correction. They just are not included with the kit just like all the aftermarket companies with kits in this price range and most don't know about them because Mopar isn't out here on the Jeep forums pimping them out like all the aftermarket companies to make you aware of them. Like you said...you need to compare apples to apples when pointing out about the included DS with the Mopar kit. That goes for control arm replacements as well and Geo brackets. What does Synergy, TF, MetalCloak, and RK provide for a replacement front drive shaft? They don't. They don't make drive shafts. They tell everyone to go see Tom Woods or Adams if they want to replace the drive shaft and forget to tell them "and BTW, you will need to regularly maintain those drive-shafts to make it last while Mopar works with Dana to provide a maintenance free replacement driveshaft because they understand not everyone wants to crawl under their Jeep on the weekends to maintain parts they know nothing to very little about while also providing one stop shopping. If you don't want to purchase a drive shaft with your 2in or 4in Mopar lift, you don't have to. They also make versions of their 2in and 4in lift which don't include the drive shaft.
Mopar adjustable control arms for their 2in and 4in lifts
https://www.jegs.com/i/Mopar-Perform...55420/10002/-1
12-18-2018, 09:16 AM
#13
Former Vendor
Is a suspension part which includes a johnny joint and therefore provides more suspension flex better but after 2 years since it is an unsealed design which gets exposed to salt water and corrodes, then therefore seizes and breaks on the trail because it can no longer flex since it has become frozen due to that corrosion, and therefore breaks and leaves you stranded on the trail "better"? Are suspension springs which look stronger but sag over the course of 1-2 years "better"? I believe Resharp you may ha\ve some 1st hand experience with this one with RK springs that looked good. Are beefy control arms with logo decals on them where their paint flakes off and corrodes, look like crap after 1 year and start becoming weaker over time due to that corrosion "better"?
12-18-2018, 09:30 AM
#14
JK Jedi
Well actually your krawler joints have a treaded adjustment ring that could seize up and prevent you from rebuilding the raceways when they wear out. I have seen lots of people with complaints about corrosion on your joints. The flex joints are basically your version of a factory style joint and don't really give you much extra flex over the factory joints. Your new powder coat is not that great and I wonder just how bad it was before you revamped your system. Your arms are solid and heavy. I would not consider them any stronger then any of the 2"x.25" walled arms on the market. I suspect this design is due to the manufacturing process vs any strength or corrosion concerns.
12-18-2018, 09:54 AM
#15
Super Moderator
Thanks Resharp, my take away for your definitiin of "better" is that it is strictly focused on perceived strength. It also seems you lump Mopar factory parts together with their accessory parts which is understandable since they carry the same brand name on them.
Designing a "standard" factory part is often a bigger challenge than a premium specialized part. You have a $10 budget to work with that the cost of the part must meet. You wish you had $50 to make it do everything you want and have the strength you want, while at the same time you are restricted to a weight limit since the the final Jeep assemby has to get 25MPG. Oh, and the part needs to perform just as good in -30degC and 80degC WITH 50%RH climates with battery acid, engine coolant, and salt water poured onil it under max stress loads, not rust for a min of 5 years and needs to meet a life expectancy minimum of 10-15 years at the same time. It also needs to have a manufacturing process which can kick out 20K parts per day, with minimal variance and down time. Those are the type of engineering challenges for a standard Jeep Mopar part. At the end of the day if the JK cost $500k because it started off with $20K per axle Prorock 60s and got 2 MPG due to the added weight, and rusteded out in a year, and didn't start when it was 120deg outside, then no one would buy a it.
However, to my main point. A Mopar accessory does not fall under those same cost,and weight limitations while it does have to meet the other corrosion, stress, and life expectancy validations. In many ways it often becomes a best of both worlds part when comparing the benefits of aftermarket and the benefits of OEM.
As an anology, It seems to me like you're looking at a Samsung $200 18in standard Def TV and a Samsung $20k 80in 8K OLED TV and thinking just because they both have the Samsung name on them, and you disliked the $200 Samsung TV then their design approaches are exactly the same on the $20k TV.
Designing a "standard" factory part is often a bigger challenge than a premium specialized part. You have a $10 budget to work with that the cost of the part must meet. You wish you had $50 to make it do everything you want and have the strength you want, while at the same time you are restricted to a weight limit since the the final Jeep assemby has to get 25MPG. Oh, and the part needs to perform just as good in -30degC and 80degC WITH 50%RH climates with battery acid, engine coolant, and salt water poured onil it under max stress loads, not rust for a min of 5 years and needs to meet a life expectancy minimum of 10-15 years at the same time. It also needs to have a manufacturing process which can kick out 20K parts per day, with minimal variance and down time. Those are the type of engineering challenges for a standard Jeep Mopar part. At the end of the day if the JK cost $500k because it started off with $20K per axle Prorock 60s and got 2 MPG due to the added weight, and rusteded out in a year, and didn't start when it was 120deg outside, then no one would buy a it.
However, to my main point. A Mopar accessory does not fall under those same cost,and weight limitations while it does have to meet the other corrosion, stress, and life expectancy validations. In many ways it often becomes a best of both worlds part when comparing the benefits of aftermarket and the benefits of OEM.
As an anology, It seems to me like you're looking at a Samsung $200 18in standard Def TV and a Samsung $20k 80in 8K OLED TV and thinking just because they both have the Samsung name on them, and you disliked the $200 Samsung TV then their design approaches are exactly the same on the $20k TV.
12-18-2018, 10:01 AM
#16
Super Moderator
Thus, the reason I said 3 "most common in 2-3in" lift heights, so smart guys like yourself wouldn't pick apart that statement.
12-18-2018, 10:18 AM
#17
JK Jedi
AEV and MC as well as others offer correction brackets instead of control arms for caster correction and is actually one of the best ways to go (for those that do not need the clearance) and offers geometry correction as well as increased caster vs just increased caster with cam bolts. This offers a better ride and tracking due to less axle shift when hitting bumps or cornering.
12-18-2018, 11:16 AM
#18
JK Enthusiast
I always do appreciate an engineers point of view though. Seriously. And none of what has been posted was bad info.
12-18-2018, 12:32 PM
#19
JK Jedi
Thanks Resharp, my take away for your definitiin of "better" is that it is strictly focused on perceived strength. It also seems you lump Mopar factory parts together with their accessory parts which is understandable since they carry the same brand name on them.
Designing a "standard" factory part is often a bigger challenge than a premium specialized part. You have a $10 budget to work with that the cost of the part must meet. You wish you had $50 to make it do everything you want and have the strength you want, while at the same time you are restricted to a weight limit since the the final Jeep assemby has to get 25MPG. Oh, and the part needs to perform just as good in -30degC and 80degC WITH 50%RH climates with battery acid, engine coolant, and salt water poured onil it under max stress loads, not rust for a min of 5 years and needs to meet a life expectancy minimum of 10-15 years at the same time. It also needs to have a manufacturing process which can kick out 20K parts per day, with minimal variance and down time. Those are the type of engineering challenges for a standard Jeep Mopar part. At the end of the day if the JK cost $500k because it started off with $20K per axle Prorock 60s and got 2 MPG due to the added weight, and rusteded out in a year, and didn't start when it was 120deg outside, then no one would buy a it.
However, to my main point. A Mopar accessory does not fall under those same cost,and weight limitations while it does have to meet the other corrosion, stress, and life expectancy validations. In many ways it often becomes a best of both worlds part when comparing the benefits of aftermarket and the benefits of OEM.
As an anology, It seems to me like you're looking at a Samsung $200 18in standard Def TV and a Samsung $20k 80in 8K OLED TV and thinking just because they both have the Samsung name on them, and you disliked the $200 Samsung TV then their design approaches are exactly the same on the $20k TV.
Designing a "standard" factory part is often a bigger challenge than a premium specialized part. You have a $10 budget to work with that the cost of the part must meet. You wish you had $50 to make it do everything you want and have the strength you want, while at the same time you are restricted to a weight limit since the the final Jeep assemby has to get 25MPG. Oh, and the part needs to perform just as good in -30degC and 80degC WITH 50%RH climates with battery acid, engine coolant, and salt water poured onil it under max stress loads, not rust for a min of 5 years and needs to meet a life expectancy minimum of 10-15 years at the same time. It also needs to have a manufacturing process which can kick out 20K parts per day, with minimal variance and down time. Those are the type of engineering challenges for a standard Jeep Mopar part. At the end of the day if the JK cost $500k because it started off with $20K per axle Prorock 60s and got 2 MPG due to the added weight, and rusteded out in a year, and didn't start when it was 120deg outside, then no one would buy a it.
However, to my main point. A Mopar accessory does not fall under those same cost,and weight limitations while it does have to meet the other corrosion, stress, and life expectancy validations. In many ways it often becomes a best of both worlds part when comparing the benefits of aftermarket and the benefits of OEM.
As an anology, It seems to me like you're looking at a Samsung $200 18in standard Def TV and a Samsung $20k 80in 8K OLED TV and thinking just because they both have the Samsung name on them, and you disliked the $200 Samsung TV then their design approaches are exactly the same on the $20k TV.
None of that there seems to fit with the idea of rigorous R&D testing. Shit sway bars, some bolts, clamps, bump stops....and what I'd consider factory springs with a bit more umph. That is extremely overpriced for what you get. There is not one single thing in that kit that is better than buying in a quality aftermarket kit.
12-18-2018, 01:45 PM
#20
Former Vendor
Well actually your krawler joints have a treaded adjustment ring that could seize up and prevent you from rebuilding the raceways when they wear out. I have seen lots of people with complaints about corrosion on your joints. The flex joints are basically your version of a factory style joint and don't really give you much extra flex over the factory joints. Your new powder coat is not that great and I wonder just how bad it was before you revamped your system. Your arms are solid and heavy. I would not consider them any stronger then any of the 2"x.25" walled arms on the market. I suspect this design is due to the manufacturing process vs any strength or corrosion concerns.
