Mike609

Old/new Jeep guy here. I just bought a '15 JKU Willys and have decided to lift it 2.5 inches. I want to run 33" tires. I'm installing a winch as we speak.
I've owned an '83 CJ7 with 33's and I've had lifted pickups since I was 17 years old (I'm now 48) and I have been down most all the roads of lift kit hell.
Perhaps there's too many choices...

I'm very confused about which route to go. I really don't have to worry about budget, but I don't want to pay for unnecessary things I'll never use. My area is flat land coastal with woods mud, sand pits and beach.
I'd like the Jeep to have close to the same manners on the highway as it has now in stock form but would like the larger/wider tires for the mud and sand that I encounter.

Some of the lifts I've been eyballing:

Mopar 2" (like this for the driveshaft)
Terraflex 2.5 with flexarms
AEV 2.5 with added geo brackets.

Suggestions encouraged.

Thanks, Mike

jedg

So, I acknowledge you have experience. However, I recommend you take a read of this thread (credit to DirtMan) - https://www.jk-forum.com/forums/modi...-lifts-288269/

As for 33s, you won't need 2.5" to clear 33s.. that's enough for 35s usually. I'm on 37s with 3 1/8" of actual lift. If you bumpstop and trim properly, you'll find you don't need nearly as much lift as the older (TJ, YJ, CJ) models needed.

resharp001

Maintaining a "factory-like" feel is mainly about correcting caster and shocks IMO. Rather than just accepting shocks that come in some kit, you might want to research some adjustable models separately. A lot of the aftermarket shocks like FOX or Bilsteins are pretty stiff.

Different kits that address caster will do so differently. AEV uses brackets, some use adjustable arms, and I believe the 2" Mopar kit uses cam bolts, but might be wrong on that. If so, I wouldn't use the cam bolts, so factor in cost of brackets or a couple arms with that one. Also with that Mopar.....remove ~$400-$425 for the cost of the drive shaft and try to compare apples to apples. You can just as easily add a drive shaft to anything else if/when necessary.

Lot of people like AEV, and AEV likes to push their ride quality. I don't think AEV is bad at all, but always seems overpriced for a lot of brackets that reuse factory parts. Kinda my same beef with Mopar lifts.....I just think these aftermarket guys put out better upgraded parts than factory. You might take a look at Metalcloak and Synergy as well for a couple more options.

Everyone has a different use, so it's really up to you. I'd just focus on shocks and caster correction. If you don't mind the geo brackets eating in to a bit of your ground clearance (which doesn't sound like an issue for your use), they are probably the best and most economical method of correcting caster. You might look at the Rancho 1-piece geo brackets an an alternative to the AEV ones. They costs a little more, but are nice.

Tactical_Geek

Metalcloak and Synergy make awesome parts. I have a Teraflex kit myself. One of the things I would add to my kit would be a new adjustable front track bar. The factory one is really just too short even for a 2.5" lift.

Mr.T

I've had the OME (Old Man Emu) 2" and 285/17 tires for >90K miles, and had similar goals in mind. Details in build thread, see link in sig below.

Rednroll

This is likely where we'll disagree and that's ok but I'll provide my opinion and insight. "Better" when it comes to aftermarket parts is often subjective, opinionated and not really backed by any factual data. To this I ask, "Better in which ways?" I'll also provide some real world examples we've seen in this forum. Is it better based on just the looks of the parts? It "looks" stronger, painted with bright colors and has more marketing hype behind it?

Is a suspension part which includes a johnny joint and therefore provides more suspension flex better but after 2 years since it is an unsealed design which gets exposed to salt water and corrodes, then therefore seizes and breaks on the trail because it can no longer flex since it has become frozen due to that corrosion, and therefore breaks and leaves you stranded on the trail "better"? Are suspension springs which look stronger but sag over the course of 1-2 years "better"? I believe Resharp you may ha\ve some 1st hand experience with this one with RK springs that looked good. Are beefy control arms with logo decals on them where their paint flakes off and corrodes, look like crap after 1 year and start becoming weaker over time due to that corrosion "better"?

I don't expect many to be able to accept where I'm going with this and expect someone to come in and argue with me and tell me I have no idea what I'm talking about since they likely lack the experience and insight of what types of not on the surface engineering goes into accessories which get sold by Mopar. I know, I'm just an idiot....I'll beat them to punch, since that's all the argument they ever provide anyways. I work for one of the largest Tier 1 automotive suppliers in the world, where the OEM customer I work with is Toyota. I often work with Toyota's accessory group in the development of accessory parts. The same group that makes the TRD performance part accessories. I therefore tend to have a lot more appreciation of what goes into an OEM accessory part such as Mopar's accessories since I realize there is a lot of testing, validation, and engineering that goes on behind the scenes and a lot of it isn't easy to see on the surface when customers are looking at parts to purchase.

Here's a pretty good example of what I'm referring to in one of Teraflex's humorous Dennis videos. Lost in the humor is at the end of the video, if you jump to 4:35 where Dennis rattles off a few items which are likely meaningless to most folks purchasing Jeep parts. "Only Teraflex has subjected it's tire carrier to....."

At this time we all know that the Teraflex and Mopar tire carrier are the same design right? Why do you think Teraflex ran their tire carrier through those tests that Dennis rattled off? I can tell you because I work in this industry. It's because Mopar made them perform those tests and likely made them perform design improvements along the way due to the results of those tests to allow Teraflex to sell their carrier through FCA's 5000+ worldwide distribution of dealerships under the Mopar brand name. I own the "Teraflex" branded version of this door hinge and tire carrier. Teraflex does not make 2 different versions. In fact if you look at Teraflex's original design it had the Teraflex name stamped into the part as can be seen in the video but that has since changed once it was sold and distributed as a Mopar part. The Teraflex carrier now comes with a separate Teraflex badge that can be stuck on the door hinge and obviously the Mopar version doesn't include that badge in the packaging. I also own the Teraflex brake light extension mount with that setup. You know what's ironic about all those 3 (Hinge, Carrier, and Brake light extension) Teraflex parts? The only one of the 3 that are not sold as a Mopar branded part is the brake light extension mount. The hinge and tire carrier, the powder coating on them still look as good as the day I purchased them. The powder coating hasn't faded, or chipped and there is no rust on them. No rattles, and as Dennis mentioned, no rust or squeaks in the hinges. However, on the brake light extension I own....the powder coating had faded within 6 months, it scraped off easily and rusted, and all the mounting hardware rusted and looked like crap. So guess which part of the TF HD tire carrier setup didn't go through those same FCA tests and engineering design improvements? The same one that is not sold as a Mopar accessory. Coincidence? I think not. That's engineering costs and design efforts that you can't look at a part and visually see the value. You have to wait and see it over time by recognizing the problems that aren't there over time. I can tell you, those 4 tests that Dennis rattled off at the end of the video, easily cost an additional $300K-$500K just to run those tests. That's a lot of tire carriers which have to be sold to recoup those costs. Those are all tests that none of the "better" aftermarket parts have performed as Dennis mentioned, and those types of tests and engineering design improvements are performed under every accessory part that is sold under the Mopar name brand.

This is what my aftermarket TF brake light extension looked like after 6 months of use. The hardware mounting bolts totally rusted closed, and the powder coat paint UV faded. Maybe stuff like this doesn't bother others, but I have a hard time considering many aftermarket parts as being "better" and as I ask, "Better in which ways?".
https://drive.google.com/uc?id=14mBO76DWnm65c_UnW5-q32e4BYLeTWQp

Here's the back side of the brake light extension bracket, paint all UV faded, rust starting to form and looking like crap.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1aH...NQ7RyjO-FxJ1TX

....and now here's me spending a couple hours sanding, repainting, and replacing screws on this bullshit aftermarket part to make it not look like a piece of shit strapped on my Jeep.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Ni...Qs1ROGx3iucI75

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1rp...fz2DA-g0Zwvdwg

Rednroll

In regards to your point about caster correction, we all know there are 3 most common ways used to adjust for caster in lifts in the 2-3in height range. Mopar is one of the few that includes a caster correction solution with their lift kit which doesn't include replacement control arms. OME does as well include cam bolts with some of their lift kits. Yes, cam bolts are the least desired solution for caster correction but one is actually provided with the kit and they work. It's the least expensive one as well, to not impact the price of the kit. What does Synergy, AEV, TF, MC and RK provide for caster correction for their aftermarket lifts that don't come with replacement control arms? Nothing? They leave it up to the customer to either know they need to add caster correction in addition to the lift, or they wait for someone to install their lift as is and then wait for them to figure out on their own that something doesn't feel right....and wait for them to then come back to the shop and then say, "Oh....well that's because you need to purchase our sold separately geo correction brackets or replacement control arms."

Mopar includes the cam bolts with their lift because we all know caster correction is needed and it will be installed by dealerships and purchased by less knowledgeable individuals who are unaware of the necessity for caster correction. Mopar also provides replacement control arms for their 2in and 4in lift kit as well if you wanted to use those instead of the cam bolts for caster correction. They just are not included with the kit just like all the aftermarket companies with kits in this price range and most don't know about them because Mopar isn't out here on the Jeep forums pimping them out like all the aftermarket companies to make you aware of them. Like you said...you need to compare apples to apples when pointing out about the included DS with the Mopar kit. That goes for control arm replacements as well and Geo brackets. What does Synergy, TF, MetalCloak, and RK provide for a replacement front drive shaft? They don't. They don't make drive shafts. They tell everyone to go see Tom Woods or Adams if they want to replace the drive shaft and forget to tell them "and BTW, you will need to regularly maintain those drive-shafts to make it last while Mopar works with Dana to provide a maintenance free replacement driveshaft because they understand not everyone wants to crawl under their Jeep on the weekends to maintain parts they know nothing to very little about while also providing one stop shopping. If you don't want to purchase a drive shaft with your 2in or 4in Mopar lift, you don't have to. They also make versions of their 2in and 4in lift which don't include the drive shaft.

Mopar adjustable control arms for their 2in and 4in lifts
https://www.jegs.com/i/Mopar-Perform...55420/10002/-1

Mr.T

This is where it might be worth mentioning what I've observed with the OME 2" compared to most other lifts. Unless the wrong springs are purchased, the actual lift is just ~2". OME is based in Australia and they have a 25mm legal limit down-under (unless a qualified engineer does an approval). There's no extended brake lines or bump stops, the down travel is only increased 1". With 33's it barely looks lifted. Haven't had it on an alignment machine, but it drives like there is sufficient caster without any correction.

Long story short, it's the actual-lift, not the advertised-lift, that dictates when the change in angle of the control arms is enough to require correction.

Mike609

Thanks to all who took time to reply.

Like anything there's compromise.

resharp001

Rednroll took the time to write a detailed post to add a different perspective. It takes effort to write a response like that, so I'll be courteous and respond. I respect the background he has as an engineer, and often find the commentary interesting. I don't have that kind of background, and can't back up my perspective with solid facts outside of what I experience myself and what I see break and bend during normal off roading. I see crap that works and crap that doesn't work....and plenty of it as I have a pretty good pool of wheelin buddies with various builds.

I agree, “better” is subjective. When it comes to steering and suspension parts, my idea of better is shit that won’t bend/break with my use. I’m not necessarily going to go in to joint discussion, cuz that is a whole different ball game and people can buy in to whatever theory they want on particular joints, but when it just comes to basic construction of a component, I don’t want a tie rod that bends like a spaghetti noodle, or a track bar that flexes with little force. I don’t want thin walled control arms that bed, or springs that will sag. The one thing I will say about joints is when it comes to them, I don’t want non-serviceable joints with crappy internals that will crack, but no worries, Mopar has us covered there.

I’ve had no issues with my RK springs in regards to function. Everyone knows the finish on RK products is crap. I’d never recommend them to someone up north, and didn’t recommend the OP look at them here. I don’t live in the rust belt. I hit my springs with some black paint when off a while back, and they do the job just fine for me.

If people are using their jeeps to the point their scraping stickers and paint off arms, they’d be scraping the factory arms just the same. Are you telling me you think one of those factory arms is stronger than a quality aftermarket arm? I have no facts to point to outside of seeing factory arms bend from good hits and holding both in my hands. I’d like to see a study of how much force it takes to bend a factory control arm compared to a Metalcloak arm.

I actually appreciate the different perspective that everyone has on here, and I can’t argue with your background. You have many valid points. Sometimes we agree, sometimes we don’t, sometimes we’re thinking about the same thing but with a different mindset. It’s much like reading a text message on a phone……you interpret that message based on the frame of mind you are in at the time of reading, not the frame of mind that the sender was in when they sent it. I realize not everyone is using their jeep the same way, but when you start modifying something like this and looking at products side by side, it’s hard to argue the factory part was superior. There’s not one thing that I’ve take off the jeep that wasn’t comical compared to what it was replaced with. Comical skid plates, comical cross member, comical bracketry all around the jeep, comical steering components, comical bumpers, comical lighting….the list goes on. It’s just my opinion that these jeeps are made to be fine on road, and just good enough for some light offroading, nothing more. If you want to make a nice Mopar promotional video, grab a stock Rubicon and go film. You want to get more serious, you need to address just about everything on em with products that are up to the task.

We can disagree here. IMO, cam bolts are complete shit that should not even be considered in the discussion. They are what they are, so they are always included, but my personal opinion is that no person modifying this particular vehicle should consider that a real solution. I would rather receive no means to correct caster and have to figure this shit out than have a kit supply some blind consumer with these, and have that consumer unknowingly mutilate their axle’s brackets, and THEN have that consumer figure out how inadequate those cam bolts are and now have to patch the brackets or stumble upon the eliminator kits. If you took a poll of members on the preferred means of caster correction, out of 100, how many people do you think would vote for cam bolts? 1? 5? 0? I’d submit in this instance it would be better to have no caster correction and have someone figure out what the hell caster is when their jeep drives like crap.

I would really like to see you hold those $399 Mopar adjustable arms in your hands, then hold some $335 Metalcloak arms in your hands, and honestly tell me you think the Mopar arms are better.

The drive shaft I’m looking at with the Mopar kit has no less than 4 zerks on it…..and I’d guess there is another zerk hiding down there in the centering joint. Idk, maybe I’m looking at the wrong thing, but that is NOT maintenance free. I'd say that is no better or worse than any other double cardan DS. Maybe they make one with solid u-joints as well which would eliminate 3 of those zerks.