Metalcloak Thread
JK Freak
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 643
Likes: 0
From: Westfield
I highly doubt your 4" lift handles better then stock unless you have a front axle with caster correction built in, have raised your roll center, and are running stiffer sway bars. The sport model rides terrible from the factory mainly due to the crappy shocks they use. Just installing a better shock valved for what you are doing will greatly improve the ride. If you think you have a nicer ride now I would credit the shocks not the lift. All coils do is hold up the weight of the jeep the shock valving is what is important for ride quality.
I never said the jeep engineers did a perfect job on the factory suspension but they did engineer it to the ride height with the constraints of the JK frame and body clearances. I understand the axle shift during articulation and if you do, you would understand that a long arm minimizes that shift. Changing the mount locations on a short arm will also minimize the axle shift. Triangulating the control arms will also eliminate the axle shift and allow you to run without the track bar or your crc link.
Not sure why you are now talking about rear seats? When loosing the debate, change the subject?
If you think shocks and coils are all the shit on the suspension talk to some of the guys running ori's They run neither shocks or springs. From your posts it looks like you know very little about suspension geometry and how to set up a suspension without it being a bolt on product.
If you want to learn about suspension design I am glad to help but if you want to quote me and spread mis-information I am done with this thread.
A 1350 driveshaft is not needed and a JK and actually limits your articulation more then a 1310 joint does.
I never said the jeep engineers did a perfect job on the factory suspension but they did engineer it to the ride height with the constraints of the JK frame and body clearances. I understand the axle shift during articulation and if you do, you would understand that a long arm minimizes that shift. Changing the mount locations on a short arm will also minimize the axle shift. Triangulating the control arms will also eliminate the axle shift and allow you to run without the track bar or your crc link.
Not sure why you are now talking about rear seats? When loosing the debate, change the subject?
If you think shocks and coils are all the shit on the suspension talk to some of the guys running ori's They run neither shocks or springs. From your posts it looks like you know very little about suspension geometry and how to set up a suspension without it being a bolt on product.
If you want to learn about suspension design I am glad to help but if you want to quote me and spread mis-information I am done with this thread.
A 1350 driveshaft is not needed and a JK and actually limits your articulation more then a 1310 joint does.
JK Enthusiast
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 462
Likes: 0
From: Lowell, AR
Here are some videos from EJS 2013 that shows a difference between a long arm and MC kit.
Here is mine running the MC Lite kit with Nitto 37x12.50s
http://youtu.be/jcSZYFOrVLg Here is a Full Traction long arm with EVO coilovers front and EVO link rear on 37x13.50 Toyos
http://youtu.be/QJnGoXpMc2w
Here is mine running the MC Lite kit with Nitto 37x12.50s
http://youtu.be/jcSZYFOrVLg Here is a Full Traction long arm with EVO coilovers front and EVO link rear on 37x13.50 Toyos
http://youtu.be/QJnGoXpMc2w
JK Junkie
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,145
Likes: 4
From: Israel
Here are some videos from EJS 2013 that shows a difference between a long arm and MC kit.
Here is mine running the MC Lite kit with Nitto 37x12.50s
http://youtu.be/jcSZYFOrVLg Here is a Full Traction long arm with EVO coilovers front and EVO link rear on 37x13.50 Toyos
http://youtu.be/QJnGoXpMc2w
Here is mine running the MC Lite kit with Nitto 37x12.50s
http://youtu.be/jcSZYFOrVLg Here is a Full Traction long arm with EVO coilovers front and EVO link rear on 37x13.50 Toyos
http://youtu.be/QJnGoXpMc2w
I watched the videos a few times.
I think that's not enough for a fair comparison of the two suspensions, especially as they were videoed from different angles.
A small difference in the initial approach angle, a few inches difference in the chosen line, and more variables, could make one Jeep cross smoothly and the other to loose grip a bit.
I think it takes more videos, more obstacles, all taken from the same angle, to fairly compare the two suspensions.
I do expect coilovers and the EVO Link to be more capable, I just say that one spot, taken from very different angles isn't enough to show it.
If the MC kit had a CRC Link added, some of the other Jeep advantage would have been cancelled.
Last edited by GJeep; May 26, 2013 at 03:09 AM.
JK Junkie
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,145
Likes: 4
From: Israel
By TheDirtman
"I highly doubt your 4" lift handles better then stock"
"A 1350 driveshaft..... actually limits your articulation more then a 1310 joint does."
"I highly doubt your 4" lift handles better then stock"
"A 1350 driveshaft..... actually limits your articulation more then a 1310 joint does."
By JKred
Adjustable arms are really just a tube or bar with a threaded end. The physical arm isnt any different than the stock in function. What you get is strength increases, at least one flex joint (Krawler joint, Johnny Joint, Duroflex, Heim, etc.) and either a second flex joint, or a bushing, either clevite or poly.
The joint selection plays a lot into the NVH (noise, vibration, and harshness) experiance for the vehicle ocupants.
The factory arms, being dual clevite bushings, isolates a LOT of the NVH. The more rubber you remove from the joint, generally speaking, the harsher the ride.
This is more noticable than people like to admit and usually try and justify their purchase and say it rides bettern than stock.
Adjustable arms are really just a tube or bar with a threaded end. The physical arm isnt any different than the stock in function. What you get is strength increases, at least one flex joint (Krawler joint, Johnny Joint, Duroflex, Heim, etc.) and either a second flex joint, or a bushing, either clevite or poly.
The joint selection plays a lot into the NVH (noise, vibration, and harshness) experiance for the vehicle ocupants.
The factory arms, being dual clevite bushings, isolates a LOT of the NVH. The more rubber you remove from the joint, generally speaking, the harsher the ride.
This is more noticable than people like to admit and usually try and justify their purchase and say it rides bettern than stock.
Regardless of how profound the disbelief is, how long the technical lecturing, or how 'inspired' the phrasing gets (By JK Inspired: "....Everyone knows there are folks on here that spread dung....")
, and regardless or how wrong the arguments get (e.g.: "A 1350 driveshaft.... actually limits your articulation more then a 1310 joint does." – The hard facts remain:● My JKUR has 4" lift bolted on the stock brackets, Fox shocks w/reservoirs (re-valved for the coils), Full Traction CRC Link and 1350 front driveshaft.
● Handling is softer and better, on & off road, vs stock suspension
● There's no stress in any joint at full flex (with the front sway bar disconnected)
● No NVH problem - smooth and silent
● No joint limits the travel from full drop to full compression, not "even" the 1350 front driveshaft
Could it be better? Yes, JKred, it can, and you pointed to the main options.
Am I hooked on my suspension because that's what I bought? No. Comparing apples to apples, I think that MC is better than my lift.
Can I see cons in my lift? I sure can. For instance, I don't like the fact that the bump stops get hit hard sometimes. Coilovers could reduce the number of hits, without hardening the ride.
Would triangulated 4 links and good coilovers improve my suspension? Yes.
Is it justified for me? No.
I can afford it, so by 'justified' I mean justified (mainly) in terms of performance.
I considered every option, including what you pointed to, and decided on what I have.
This is a DD which offroads on most weekends and a few times a year for 6~10 days. (I wish for more, but that's the free time I have).
If it was an offroad-dedicated Jeep, maybe I'd have taken another way.
If possible, I'd avoid welding on the frame. In view of the performance of my bolt-on 4" lift, it is possible to get very good results from a bolt-on lift without resorting to welded parts.
So far, my '12 Rubi could go anywhere the Jeep of my 4x4 shop owner goes, except for the most extreme, and that Jeep has a Hemi on two Dana60 axles – and that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Now, a few people here have the MC lifts, bolted on the stock brackets. What's your experience?
Please share. How is the ride vs stock suspension? THAT bad?
"factory brackets should be thrown out the window when you lift a vehicle. Springs and shocks help, as well as arms like MC's that use a joint the has both a high deflection angle and good NVH characteristice, but a vehicle with proper suspension geometry will always be superior both on and off road."
● Bump steer
● Increased body roll
● Worse handling
As for the CRC Link:
"....the CRC link... All this is, is a Watts link, and is an effective way of keeping the axle constantly centered, AND raising the roll center quite a bit. However, it takes up quite a bit of space, add ANOTHER link, and some elaborite bracketry, which is why you will never see it out of the factory. It does the same thing as triangulated 4 links, which are superior in every way, as they are constant centering, high roll center, AND no axle steer."
CRC Link:
Triangulated 4 links:
Link – CRC Link on rocks – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pSVgVcepVA
The CRC Link is a bolt-on, simple replacement of the radius arm (with no welds), occupies little space and the space it does occupy interferes with nothing.
It has no influence on the rest of the suspension (except for keeping the rear axle centered).
The 'elaborate bracketry' is actually a tough rear differential cover.
As you rightly said, it is "an effective way of keeping the axle constantly centered", and "It does the same thing as triangulated 4 links"– so why criticize it?
After the installation at the 4x4 shop, we test driven the Jeep. His reaction – "I didn't expect such a big change. This is better than any Jeep I've driven. It steers like it has the EVO Lever".
He wondered if it's available for his Dana60. It is. He ordered it when we got back.
That was the second CRC Link in my country, and by now there are more, out of what "you will never see out of the factory".
Before the CRC Link, the Jeep needed constant small steering corrections even on smooth roads. This is gone.
On roads, good or bad, I can hold the steering wheel lightly, even in strong wind gusts.
Offroad, it goes where the steering points, the constant corrections to keep it on the chosen line are history.
Last edited by GJeep; May 26, 2013 at 04:23 AM.
JK Enthusiast
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 462
Likes: 0
From: Lowell, AR
JK Enthusiast
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 462
Likes: 0
From: Lowell, AR
JK Junkie
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,145
Likes: 4
From: Israel
'Better shocks' and 'suitable shocks' are two different things.
Better shocks will last longer.
Coil and shock are a combination that works together. so suitable shocks are shocks that suit the specific coils, regardless of their price.
The best or most expensive shocks, if not properly valved for the MC (or any other) coils, will be a disappointment.
MC can be consulted with, regarding suitable shocks, or the suitable valving of shocks.
Better shocks will last longer.
Coil and shock are a combination that works together. so suitable shocks are shocks that suit the specific coils, regardless of their price.
The best or most expensive shocks, if not properly valved for the MC (or any other) coils, will be a disappointment.
MC can be consulted with, regarding suitable shocks, or the suitable valving of shocks.
Last edited by GJeep; May 26, 2013 at 11:32 AM.