Yes, of course. My brain was saying RCMP and my fingers wrote OPP. Argh. Hate it when that happens.

 

Canada has some major differences in the way charges and police information are handed off to media. The RCMP in particular has a long history of refusing to disclose ongoing cases and judges up here aren't afraid of issuing publication bans for highly publicized serious offences.

Another issue regarding the detention prior to formal charges is that the Crown Counsel is proceeding (as far as I know, as of today) with 2nd degree murder charges. Sounds like they aren't confident that they can prove premeditation. Either way, this guy will probably get life or be held on mental health grounds.


A large number of the murders and serious injuries in Canada are because of knife/blunt weapon violence. Handgun controls have resulted in a generally lower rate of handgun violence, with the large exception being gang-related, however if someone really wants to do some damage, they're going to find a means of some sort.

In a tight spot like a bus a handgun can be as much a liability as a help. All it takes is for the subject to get a hold of your weapon, and one round, and all of a sudden you're in a world of hurt.


Best thing to come out of this story: The passengers and bystanders kept the wacko from fleeing by surrounding the bus and wielding hammers and tools. Good on em!!!

 

In this case (so far) it seems like the nut in question only wanted to harm one individual. Therefore yes, someone with a concealed handgun on the bus would not have saved any further loss of life. HOWEVER, what if the nut decided to kill as many people as he could? Fish in a barrel anyone? Had that occured I seriously doubt that anybody would have protested the judicious use of a firearm to prevent further bloodshed... I'd have shot him one way or the other, somebody who just randomly starts cutting someones head off doesn't need to be on the same bus with me or my loved ones.

 

Guy like that doesn't need to be on the same planet. If a concealed carry had been on the bus maybe the victim would be in critical care instead of the morgue.

 

Really???? This is what I find to be most disturbing about this story. There were 30 something people on this bus and that's the best they could do? People survive from stabbings all the time. No one survives a beheading. Now I now it takes more than a few seconds for 30 people to get off a bus. And I'm pretty sure it takes more than a few seconds to behead someone. So I still am in shock, armed or not armed, that not a single person tried to save this kid. I realize the attacker had a rambo knife but not a single person tried to stop him. Don't want to get stabbed yourself? Throw your luggage, swing your backpack/purse. Don't run off the bus and let the kid die.

If I ever saw an event like this I would walk up and put one it the back of his head. I don't care. It's just not right.

 

I don't think anyone knows how they will react until they are in a situation such as this.

 

Un huh....and you know you would do this from previous experience? I didnt think so. People react to situations TOTALLY different in high stress situations...this isnt a paper target.

And they DID try to stop him, they were sleeping, woke up to this guys being massacred, once they got over the shock (and buddy was probably dead) attempted to stop him, he turned a bit on them they decided to GTFO. You realize this guy was eating bits of the other guy right?

Sorry man, no one know how they would react until put into the situation.....for instance of the 4 planes hijacked on 9/11, why is it that 3 made it to the objectives and only one group of extremely brave people stopped the 4th? You arent saying that the other 3 planes were full of cowards are you? I certainly dont think they were.

 

I'm definitely not going to go up against a crazed attacker wielding a knife with my own bare fists. I've been in law enforcement for the past 2 years and in the military for the last 4, and the first rule is: Don't be a hero. Most of the people were in shock/disoriented/panicking and it was nighttime with all of the visibility problems to boot.

As much as intervening in a situation like this seem reasonable, my training, and my personal instincts, tell me to retreat to safety and then take him down when you have an advantage in force and equipment. This is exactly what the bus passengers and other bystanders did before police arrived. The fact that they did this means that the nut was unable to escape and injure or kill more people.

Whether or not another passenger having a sidearm in this case would have helped is really part of a larger issue. You then have to look at the overall stats and try to figure out whether saving this one life is worth an increase gun violence rate, etc., which is something I'm not going to touch here. One thing in Canada that is different is that carrying is not nearly as socially acceptable. I'm not saying that it's wrong or right, but one thing is sure and that is that the particular social aspect is not likely to change anytime soon, so carrying and popping some guy with a knife just isn't an option.

Bottom line: it's pretty hard for me to say after the fact that carrying would have definitely prevented a loss of life.

 

Sorry, but I'm with bcperry2000 on this one. And, I can tell you from personal experience. Panama (1989), Persian Gulf (1991), Somalia (1993). That certainly wasn't any paper target shooting AK rounds back at me.

It's called fight or flight instinct. and folks who choose to own firearms for personal protection are not typically the flight kind when the feces hits the fan.

Frankly the correlation between the bus incident and an incident in a passenger jet at 35,000 feet isn't even relevant. There is a HUGE difference. If I fight back on a bus and make a mistake, more than likely I will bear the brunt of the mistake. The bus isn't going to fall out of the sky and kill everyone on board. If I am in a jet and make a mistake I run the risk of jeopardizing the lives of every single person on that plane.

It has absolutely nothing to do with cowardice. If the pilots really were incapacitated or killed on 9/11 as it is theorized, that changes the situation completely. Now storming the cockpit and killing the terrorist who is the only one left to fly the plane isn't such a clear cut thing. To most of the passengers on those flights hijacking just meant flying to Cuba, not flying into buildings. They did not necessarily fear for their lives in the same way when the plane was taken over, that we would fear today. The only reason it is believed that the 4th flight acted any differently is that they were told by people on the ground that other hijacked planes were being deliberately flown into buildings. Had they not known that simple piece of information they probably would have acted just like to folks in the other three flights.

If the same thing happened again today people most certainly would react much differently now that they know what *might* happen. It doesn't mean they were cowards before, it just means the world has changed.

 

Fair enough on that point. However, I disagree with you on a few others.

First, if you fight back on a bus you may not be the only victim of your mistake. In this particular situation, the only time that fighting back might *potentially* have been worthwhile (and from what I know from the officers who attended the scene, I think the kid was long dead before anyone could react) was at the time that everyone was still on the bus, and just realizing what was going on. At that point, you have a bunch of terrified people in a small confined space. As I am sure you know from your experience, it aien't like the movies. You cannot just walk up, pump a couple into someone and expect that they will stay there AND more importantly, that your aim is good and he's going down for the count. Someone else could have gotten hurt.

After those first few seconds, that boy was a goner. No point in shooting the guy at that point. Everyone was off the bus, everyone was safe. And I don't believe in vigilanty justice, sorry.

Furthermore, I think as a member of the military, your fight or flight response is far different than the average citizen seated on a bus in rual Canada. I would suggest that it is far different than even the average person who carries a firearm. At the end of the day, the decision to take a life for the first time as a civilian is one that would cause most people (or those who haven't been watching too many movies) a moment of pause. A moment better spent getting OFF the bus rather than have two bodies and a murderer now in possession of a gun.