Optima Battery
JK Freak
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 807
Likes: 0
From: Austin, Tx
JK Super Freak
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,255
Likes: 2
From: GRANDE PRAIRIE, AB
you guys are all missing out.
Canadian Tire sells battery's with 3 year free replacement with the option of tripling it to 9yrs for an extra $10.
hell yah 9 yrs free replacement. no battery last 9 yrs.
oh yah they are made by Exide
I guess the best is to run two batteries
Canadian Tire sells battery's with 3 year free replacement with the option of tripling it to 9yrs for an extra $10.
hell yah 9 yrs free replacement. no battery last 9 yrs.
oh yah they are made by Exide
I guess the best is to run two batteries
JK Jedi
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,468
Likes: 221
From: SE Michigan
Posted Here for further Info in regards to Optima batteries since there have been mixed review experiences:
I've been reading a lot of "bad" stories about the Optimas, including some on this site and decided to kick off a personal investigation to see if I could find out what the heck is going on with the Optima, since a lot of people rave about them, while other long time users will no longer touch them and have switched to the Diehard Platinum/Odyssey option.
I just posted this message on a Toyota Tundra forum, since my investigation led me there.
Link to full Discussion:
Title: Goodbye Optima, Hello Die Hard Platinum
http://www.tundrasolutions.com/forums/1gen-tundra/158687-goodbye-optima-hello-die-hard-platinum-4/#post1532171
Jim, I highly respect the information you have posted. However, I am an electrical engineer who works for a company which supplies electrical components to Toyota where I specialize in problem solving and I always keep asking the question "Why?" during problem solving, until I can no longer ask that question any longer, so that I get to the final/real root cause of a problem. It's a process that was taught to me by working with Toyota engineers....and since this is a "Tundra" website, it only felt fitting that I should reply.
I actually visit Jeep Wrangler forums on a regular basis, since I own a Jeep Wrangler and have read many disappointed Jeep off-road stories associated with the Optima batteries, similar to what I'm reading in this discussion. I have actually noticed you seem to be on a damage control mission, to try and clear up some of the misinformation, since I've seen you post on multiple Jeep Wrangler forums. This is a good thing, the truth is always good since things can get out of hand due to people speculating and not knowing.
I recently purchased a new battery for my Wrangler and decided to go with the Diehard Platinum, but yes the Optima was high on my consideration list. The truth of the matter was that I haven't read any bad experience stories with the Die-Hard Platinum/Odyssey batteries, but there have been many bad Optima stories and a lot of Wrangler Optima enthusiasts have been switching to the Diehard Platinum/Odyssey battery as a better solution. For me personally in regards to my purchase decision, it was a matter of less bad stories, better specifications, better price, and a better warranty.
So anyways when I read your statement above......
It made me ask the question WHY are many of the "bad" batteries returned just deeply discharged?So, I did some reading/investigating and found a very interesting and informative post by someone which I believe explains the high warranty return of Optima batteries that are just deeply discharged and would also seem to explain why some people have had a terrific experience, while others have had repeated failures in a short amount of time. (ie I've read a few posts where users have had to replace their Optima Yellow top up to 3 different times in a 1-3 month period each.) Now, I do deal with Warranty returns being in the automotive industry and often look at PPM statistical numbers and 3 returns for the same person with 3 separate Optima batteries in the same vehicle caught my attention as being a statistical anomaly and made me wonder.....Could their manufacturing quality really be that bad or could this be more of a design related problem inherent to the design of the battery?
So let me post the information I found:
So feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, since it's the truth we're after and the message you seem to come to deliver when you posted. After reading this information this is the conclusion that I have come to. The Optima battery has a higher MINIMUM charging voltage than most batteries available in their class. If the alternator/charging system or driving conditions is not capable of reaching the 13.65V minimum charge voltage then the Optima battery will not be able to fully charge. So this is the reason why one person can have multiple failures with different Optima batteries while others can go on for years without ever experiencing a problem, because it relies upon each persons particular vehicle and/or their driving habits. Since a lot of vehicle's charging systems are designed with the "typical" minimum charging voltage of most batteries in mind and not the higher "exception" as is the case with the Optima battery, then this can lead to the battery dying due to not being able to be charged properly. Thus, this is "WHY" many of the “bad” batteries returned are just deeply-discharged and work fine, when properly recharged.
So this seems like a problem related to the "design" specifications related to the minimum charge voltage of Optima batteries and this design flaw rears its ugly head when someone's charging system does not meet that minimum charging voltage which is higher than most other batteries. You seem to be trying to allude to user misuse as being the root cause for these many returns, and are supporting that with that there is a high amount of these batteries sold, so of course you're going to hear more "bad" stories. I'm sure there a have been a lot of Diehard Platinum batteries sold since 2007 when they where 1st started being sold by Sears also, as well as Odyssey batteries, but I'm just not reading as many stories that are similar in nature about those batteries like this one....remember, I know some things about the laws of statistics and PPMs?
Am I on to something here Jim? Is a frantic re-design activity currently going on over at Optima to try to lower that minimum charge voltage threshold? Or is this also all just misinformation? If it is misinformation then please feel free to inform us of what that misinformation is. I'm an engineer, but not a battery expert, so I'll be happy to learn something new and stand corrected, so I can pass the information along to the Jeep Wrangler crowd.
Thanks.
I've been reading a lot of "bad" stories about the Optimas, including some on this site and decided to kick off a personal investigation to see if I could find out what the heck is going on with the Optima, since a lot of people rave about them, while other long time users will no longer touch them and have switched to the Diehard Platinum/Odyssey option.
I just posted this message on a Toyota Tundra forum, since my investigation led me there.
Link to full Discussion:
Title: Goodbye Optima, Hello Die Hard Platinum
http://www.tundrasolutions.com/forums/1gen-tundra/158687-goodbye-optima-hello-die-hard-platinum-4/#post1532171
Hello, I noticed your conversation regarding our batteries and wanted to offer some assistance. The quality of our batteries has always been excellent and continues to improve. We still make all of our own batteries in our own facility and we never re-badge or re-spec them for anyone. The batteries we are producing today are the best we have ever made and many of the “bad” batteries returned to us now are just deeply-discharged and work fine, when properly recharged.
Many battery chargers will not recognize or charge any battery that has been discharged below 10.5 volts (some companies will void your warranty if your battery drops below 10 volts). Deeply-discharged Optimas can be recovered with most chargers, by using the parallel charging technique described in this video- YouTube - Tech Tips 3: Recovering a Deeply Discharged Battery
We did change our warranty policy in February of 2009, in an effort to simplify the process both for consumers and retailers. The replacement warranty on all new RedTops and YellowTops is now three years. If there is a manufacturing defect with any battery, it is likely to manifest itself well within that timeframe. Boosted27606 is also correct about pro-rated warranties being primarily driven by marketing objectives. Some pro-rated warranties begin immediately, so even if a battery fails within the first month, a consumer may be paying out of pocket for their warranty claim.
While our batteries are all AGM, the proprietary SpiralCell design is unique to Optima and inserted into our cases under compression. This compressed feature allows more material to be used in the same battery group size. Even compared to other AGM batteries, you may find another group 25 battery that weighs 45% more than an Optima, but only offers 3% more cold cranking amps.
While many consumers may never need the vibration-resistance of an AGM battery, they would rather not deal with the corrosion issues commonly associated with flooded batteries. CJM T100 offers some very good insight into common battery issues. We try to encourage everyone to always maintain at least 12.4 volts in their battery. When voltage drops below that level, sulfation will begin to diminish capacity and lifespan. Regular use of a battery tender or maintainer is an excellent investment for any vehicle that only sees occasional and will help extend battery life, regardless of brand. If you have any questions about our batteries, I’ll do my best to answer them.
Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries
Many battery chargers will not recognize or charge any battery that has been discharged below 10.5 volts (some companies will void your warranty if your battery drops below 10 volts). Deeply-discharged Optimas can be recovered with most chargers, by using the parallel charging technique described in this video- YouTube - Tech Tips 3: Recovering a Deeply Discharged Battery
We did change our warranty policy in February of 2009, in an effort to simplify the process both for consumers and retailers. The replacement warranty on all new RedTops and YellowTops is now three years. If there is a manufacturing defect with any battery, it is likely to manifest itself well within that timeframe. Boosted27606 is also correct about pro-rated warranties being primarily driven by marketing objectives. Some pro-rated warranties begin immediately, so even if a battery fails within the first month, a consumer may be paying out of pocket for their warranty claim.
While our batteries are all AGM, the proprietary SpiralCell design is unique to Optima and inserted into our cases under compression. This compressed feature allows more material to be used in the same battery group size. Even compared to other AGM batteries, you may find another group 25 battery that weighs 45% more than an Optima, but only offers 3% more cold cranking amps.
While many consumers may never need the vibration-resistance of an AGM battery, they would rather not deal with the corrosion issues commonly associated with flooded batteries. CJM T100 offers some very good insight into common battery issues. We try to encourage everyone to always maintain at least 12.4 volts in their battery. When voltage drops below that level, sulfation will begin to diminish capacity and lifespan. Regular use of a battery tender or maintainer is an excellent investment for any vehicle that only sees occasional and will help extend battery life, regardless of brand. If you have any questions about our batteries, I’ll do my best to answer them.
Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries
I actually visit Jeep Wrangler forums on a regular basis, since I own a Jeep Wrangler and have read many disappointed Jeep off-road stories associated with the Optima batteries, similar to what I'm reading in this discussion. I have actually noticed you seem to be on a damage control mission, to try and clear up some of the misinformation, since I've seen you post on multiple Jeep Wrangler forums. This is a good thing, the truth is always good since things can get out of hand due to people speculating and not knowing.
I recently purchased a new battery for my Wrangler and decided to go with the Diehard Platinum, but yes the Optima was high on my consideration list. The truth of the matter was that I haven't read any bad experience stories with the Die-Hard Platinum/Odyssey batteries, but there have been many bad Optima stories and a lot of Wrangler Optima enthusiasts have been switching to the Diehard Platinum/Odyssey battery as a better solution. For me personally in regards to my purchase decision, it was a matter of less bad stories, better specifications, better price, and a better warranty.
So anyways when I read your statement above......
many of the “bad” batteries returned to us now are just deeply-discharged and work fine, when properly recharged.
So let me post the information I found:
Here's a link to the specification sheet on the Yellow Top
http://europe.optimabatteries.com/pu..._78_082104.pdf
You will notice that the open circuit voltage of a fully charged yellow top battery is 13.1 volts (not 12.66 volts like typical automotive starting batteries). Also the recommended alternator charging voltage range is 13.65-15 volts, so the minimum of the range there is where the problems usually begin.
For comparison - here is a link to the specification sheet on the Red Top
http://europe.optimabatteries.com/pu...4R_0823041.pdf
Notice that red top battery has an open circuit voltage of 12.8 volts at full charge (which is much closer to a typical automotive battery). Also you will notice on the red top that the recommended alternator charging voltage is 13.3-15 volts with no current limitations. The yellow top never really says there is a current limitation but when I visited the factory in Colorado, they told me that the yellow tops don't like to be heavily charged and discharged simultaneously. That shortens the useable life of the full capacity. Randy their technical wizard told me this so I regarded it as credible information. Also consider that any automotive battery regardless of brand will never fully recover a charge when it's been heavily discharged. Batteries do not last forever....they need proper care and feeding.
The thing is, not all alternators are going to charge at the higher range of the voltage - especially when you have a bunch of batteries connected to the output. That's been the problem for many people using yellow top batteries in the past is that they are hopelessly undercharged most of the time and it's worse when there are multiples of them. It's not uncommon for today's vehicles to be regulated to a minimum alternator output to conserve the electromagnetic drag on the engine from the alternator and if you go and measure some cars you will find that 13.65 as a minimum charging voltage is asking for trouble. That's why for cars that actually start and drive (meaning varied states of idle, stop and go traffic, low RPM city driving where alternators are not running full field), a starting battery is a better application.
Now if you have personally had success with yellow top Optima batteries, I would venture to guess that it was because:
1) There was a high output alternator (appropriately regulated) involved..or
2) The car had long periods of freeway driving on a regular basis in which charging voltage minimums were frequently met....or
3) The car regularly had a battery charger or power supply connected....or
4) It was the only battery in the system and simply replaced the starting battery...and
5) the kicker to all of these is that the battery was always in a relatively good state of charge...never really dead.
For cars that drive and have used yellow tops, especially if there are multiples of them - we all know people who have had lackluster performance to the point where they are frustrated with what "should" work great but doesn't. I am not saying there aren't situations where people have had no problems and experienced good results, but generally the application of the yellow top is misplaced when used in situations where it should have been a starting battery upgrade (whatever kind of battery you choose).
So, that is why I say Optima yellow tops are great for show cars that plug into a power supply and crank it all day long, but a starting battery with complimentary charging voltage requirements is the preferred choice for cars that actually drive and that don't have heavily modified charging systems.
http://europe.optimabatteries.com/pu..._78_082104.pdf
You will notice that the open circuit voltage of a fully charged yellow top battery is 13.1 volts (not 12.66 volts like typical automotive starting batteries). Also the recommended alternator charging voltage range is 13.65-15 volts, so the minimum of the range there is where the problems usually begin.
For comparison - here is a link to the specification sheet on the Red Top
http://europe.optimabatteries.com/pu...4R_0823041.pdf
Notice that red top battery has an open circuit voltage of 12.8 volts at full charge (which is much closer to a typical automotive battery). Also you will notice on the red top that the recommended alternator charging voltage is 13.3-15 volts with no current limitations. The yellow top never really says there is a current limitation but when I visited the factory in Colorado, they told me that the yellow tops don't like to be heavily charged and discharged simultaneously. That shortens the useable life of the full capacity. Randy their technical wizard told me this so I regarded it as credible information. Also consider that any automotive battery regardless of brand will never fully recover a charge when it's been heavily discharged. Batteries do not last forever....they need proper care and feeding.
The thing is, not all alternators are going to charge at the higher range of the voltage - especially when you have a bunch of batteries connected to the output. That's been the problem for many people using yellow top batteries in the past is that they are hopelessly undercharged most of the time and it's worse when there are multiples of them. It's not uncommon for today's vehicles to be regulated to a minimum alternator output to conserve the electromagnetic drag on the engine from the alternator and if you go and measure some cars you will find that 13.65 as a minimum charging voltage is asking for trouble. That's why for cars that actually start and drive (meaning varied states of idle, stop and go traffic, low RPM city driving where alternators are not running full field), a starting battery is a better application.
Now if you have personally had success with yellow top Optima batteries, I would venture to guess that it was because:
1) There was a high output alternator (appropriately regulated) involved..or
2) The car had long periods of freeway driving on a regular basis in which charging voltage minimums were frequently met....or
3) The car regularly had a battery charger or power supply connected....or
4) It was the only battery in the system and simply replaced the starting battery...and
5) the kicker to all of these is that the battery was always in a relatively good state of charge...never really dead.
For cars that drive and have used yellow tops, especially if there are multiples of them - we all know people who have had lackluster performance to the point where they are frustrated with what "should" work great but doesn't. I am not saying there aren't situations where people have had no problems and experienced good results, but generally the application of the yellow top is misplaced when used in situations where it should have been a starting battery upgrade (whatever kind of battery you choose).
So, that is why I say Optima yellow tops are great for show cars that plug into a power supply and crank it all day long, but a starting battery with complimentary charging voltage requirements is the preferred choice for cars that actually drive and that don't have heavily modified charging systems.
The yellow top is a different battery than the others in their line. It takes a higher charging voltage to maintain a yellow top and it is a bigger load on an alternator or whatever is being used to charge it. If you are running them in a vehicle and charging off of an alternator, the alternator must put out significant current at 13.65 volts just to maintain the battery. This doesn't happen in very many vehicles, especially when they are running the engines at lower rpms while off road.
So this seems like a problem related to the "design" specifications related to the minimum charge voltage of Optima batteries and this design flaw rears its ugly head when someone's charging system does not meet that minimum charging voltage which is higher than most other batteries. You seem to be trying to allude to user misuse as being the root cause for these many returns, and are supporting that with that there is a high amount of these batteries sold, so of course you're going to hear more "bad" stories. I'm sure there a have been a lot of Diehard Platinum batteries sold since 2007 when they where 1st started being sold by Sears also, as well as Odyssey batteries, but I'm just not reading as many stories that are similar in nature about those batteries like this one....remember, I know some things about the laws of statistics and PPMs?
Am I on to something here Jim? Is a frantic re-design activity currently going on over at Optima to try to lower that minimum charge voltage threshold? Or is this also all just misinformation? If it is misinformation then please feel free to inform us of what that misinformation is. I'm an engineer, but not a battery expert, so I'll be happy to learn something new and stand corrected, so I can pass the information along to the Jeep Wrangler crowd.
Thanks.
JK Jedi
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,468
Likes: 221
From: SE Michigan
I see OptimaJim has now recently replied to my message. I'll post here:
Originally Posted by OptimaJim
Hi Rednroll1,
In your previous posts there is a long discussion about deeply discharged batteries and recommended alternator output voltages. These are separate issues. The alternator output voltage is a factor in determining what the peak charged voltage of the battery is, but, it is a totally separate issue from anything that would cause a battery to be deeply discharged. I will discuss this further in more detail below.
I am active on a lot of forums, including Jeep sites, because Optima identified a need for having a presence in these communities. We do have a toll-free number (888-8OPTIMA) on every battery we make, as well as a website and an e-mail address (info@optimabatteries.com), where people can contact us if they have any questions or concerns about our products, but we’ve found that quite a few folks prefer to come to forums like this one to ask questions. Sometimes the answers and advice are great, sometimes they need some assistance. We prefer to be pro-active with our customer service and my presence is a reflection of that approach.
One of the major issues I deal with in the 4x4 community is explaining the difference between a deep-cycle battery and a starting battery for people who are using winches and other accessories with high electrical draws. Our RedTops are not designed or warrantied for deep-cycle use and we do our best to explain that to customers, but I still routinely encounter people who are using RedTops in those applications. Sometimes these threads can get quite lengthy and just when I think I’ve done a good job of explaining the need for a deep-cycle battery in a winching application, someone will post a comment, admit they hadn’t read the first four pages and start complaining about their RedTop no longer winching like it once did. The reason this is important is that a starting battery is by definition designed to maximize starting power, and it is not as tolerant of repeated deep discharge and will therefore not last as long in a deep cycle application, such as winching. A dual purpose or deep cycle battery is designed and built to tolerate repeated deep discharge and will last several times longer than a starting battery in this type of application.
Another major issue I contend with is that of startup voltage thresholds on battery chargers. As I already mentioned in this thread, many chargers will not recognize or charge a battery that has been discharged below 10.5 volts. This is a charger issue and is not unique to Optima. Different manufacturers handle this in different ways. Optima decided to create YouTube videos, explaining how to parallel charge a deeply-discharged battery. They also sent me out to the message boards to make people aware of this technique. Other companies handled this situation by voiding the warranty of any of their batteries deemed to be “overdischarged” if voltage is measured at 10 volts or lower.
People who use chargers that will not recognize that the battery is only deeply discharged end up being the source of many of our deeply-discharged returns. Deeply discharged batteries is more common in the off road community because offroaders will tend to have substantially higher electrical demands than the average daily driver.
For any vehicle that isn’t driven regularly, voltage self-discharge is a concern as well – no battery is an infinite source of power and must be recharged as some point. Add in other variables like older wiring and electrical components, bad grounds, improper installation and high key-off loads and there are many reasons that have nothing to do with the battery which will explain why a person could have a deeply discharged battery.
We are also working with our retailers to ensure that proper charge and check procedures are done on all batteries returned under warranty, which does help catch many of these deeply-discharged batteries, before they are returned to us, but again, we’d like to also address this situation at the consumer level as well.
You raise a good point about the same theoretical person returning three different batteries in a relatively-short amount of time and wondering why that might be happening. I do my very best to help these folks work through their issues, but the fact is, someone would have a better chance of winning the lottery than to acquire three defective batteries in a row from any reputable battery manufacturer, at least in terms of a manufacturing defect causing a failure. Many times, when I look through other posts by these people who claim to have multiple failures, I find that they are sorting through a variety of wiring and electrical issues, while also dealing with a battery that they believe is defective.
For some reason, your links don’t seem to be working for me, but I’ll try to address everything you’ve posted following those links. To keep things simple for people, I generally suggest that when fully-charged, our YellowTops will measure approximately 13.0-13.2. Fully-charged RedTops will generally measure approximately 12.6 to 12.8 volts. OPTIMA suggests that the typical output of an alternator should be approximately 13.7-14.7 volts which should be within the typical operating range of most vehicles. It is our experience that the alternator output of most vehicles is within the 14.0-14.4v range. The recommended charging voltage is a range, the stated minimum is just that, a minimum.
A common misconception is that starting your car and letting it idle for a short period will keep a battery charged. In reality this may result in a battery becoming progressively discharged because an alternator does not provide it’s peak output at idle. In fact, charging concerns at idle and during low-speed usage or short trips is a common point I make in many threads, including these-
NAXJA Forums -::- North American XJ Association - View Single Post - Stupid Red Top
*********.Com Bulletin Board - View Single Post - New battery thread who's #1
CK5 Forums - View Single Post - Optima batteries
Many people do make significant modifications to their vehicles, adding lights, winches, refrigerators, large stereos, etc.. and feel that upgrading their battery will compensate for the additional demands. While a new battery will help, many of these people ignore the need for wiring and alternator upgrades, which often leads to problems over time. If an alternator in those situations wasn’t up to the task of maintaining a YellowTop, it probably wouldn’t have been able to maintain any other battery either.
I did check the output of both the alternator in my pickup truck and my wife’s truck and both read just above 14 volts at idle and there is nothing special about either alternator. You stated that the recommended OPTIMA minimum is higher than most batteries, we have checked several manufacturers and have not been able to find anything to support this. A recommended charging voltage range of 13.7-14.7 volts is certainly not uncommon for any battery, including competitive brands. I did take a look at the charging instructions for two other battery brands, to see if our specified voltage range is outside the norm and I actually found the recommended OPTIMA range to be broader than the other two companies, with one suggesting a minimum of 14.1 and a maximum of 14.7 volts for deep-cycle charging. Some manufacturers also recommend using their proprietary chargers.
A battery does spend its entire existence either charging or discharging, even if it is only discharging at a very low rate. That’s why we recommend a battery tender or maintainer for any vehicle that doesn’t see daily use. Keeping a battery charged at or above 12.4 volts will help extend the life of the battery, regardless of brand. If you have statistics regarding the number of batteries other manufacturers sell and what their return rate is, feel free to share them.
Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
Optima Batteries | Facebook
In your previous posts there is a long discussion about deeply discharged batteries and recommended alternator output voltages. These are separate issues. The alternator output voltage is a factor in determining what the peak charged voltage of the battery is, but, it is a totally separate issue from anything that would cause a battery to be deeply discharged. I will discuss this further in more detail below.
I am active on a lot of forums, including Jeep sites, because Optima identified a need for having a presence in these communities. We do have a toll-free number (888-8OPTIMA) on every battery we make, as well as a website and an e-mail address (info@optimabatteries.com), where people can contact us if they have any questions or concerns about our products, but we’ve found that quite a few folks prefer to come to forums like this one to ask questions. Sometimes the answers and advice are great, sometimes they need some assistance. We prefer to be pro-active with our customer service and my presence is a reflection of that approach.
One of the major issues I deal with in the 4x4 community is explaining the difference between a deep-cycle battery and a starting battery for people who are using winches and other accessories with high electrical draws. Our RedTops are not designed or warrantied for deep-cycle use and we do our best to explain that to customers, but I still routinely encounter people who are using RedTops in those applications. Sometimes these threads can get quite lengthy and just when I think I’ve done a good job of explaining the need for a deep-cycle battery in a winching application, someone will post a comment, admit they hadn’t read the first four pages and start complaining about their RedTop no longer winching like it once did. The reason this is important is that a starting battery is by definition designed to maximize starting power, and it is not as tolerant of repeated deep discharge and will therefore not last as long in a deep cycle application, such as winching. A dual purpose or deep cycle battery is designed and built to tolerate repeated deep discharge and will last several times longer than a starting battery in this type of application.
Another major issue I contend with is that of startup voltage thresholds on battery chargers. As I already mentioned in this thread, many chargers will not recognize or charge a battery that has been discharged below 10.5 volts. This is a charger issue and is not unique to Optima. Different manufacturers handle this in different ways. Optima decided to create YouTube videos, explaining how to parallel charge a deeply-discharged battery. They also sent me out to the message boards to make people aware of this technique. Other companies handled this situation by voiding the warranty of any of their batteries deemed to be “overdischarged” if voltage is measured at 10 volts or lower.
People who use chargers that will not recognize that the battery is only deeply discharged end up being the source of many of our deeply-discharged returns. Deeply discharged batteries is more common in the off road community because offroaders will tend to have substantially higher electrical demands than the average daily driver.
For any vehicle that isn’t driven regularly, voltage self-discharge is a concern as well – no battery is an infinite source of power and must be recharged as some point. Add in other variables like older wiring and electrical components, bad grounds, improper installation and high key-off loads and there are many reasons that have nothing to do with the battery which will explain why a person could have a deeply discharged battery.
We are also working with our retailers to ensure that proper charge and check procedures are done on all batteries returned under warranty, which does help catch many of these deeply-discharged batteries, before they are returned to us, but again, we’d like to also address this situation at the consumer level as well.
You raise a good point about the same theoretical person returning three different batteries in a relatively-short amount of time and wondering why that might be happening. I do my very best to help these folks work through their issues, but the fact is, someone would have a better chance of winning the lottery than to acquire three defective batteries in a row from any reputable battery manufacturer, at least in terms of a manufacturing defect causing a failure. Many times, when I look through other posts by these people who claim to have multiple failures, I find that they are sorting through a variety of wiring and electrical issues, while also dealing with a battery that they believe is defective.
For some reason, your links don’t seem to be working for me, but I’ll try to address everything you’ve posted following those links. To keep things simple for people, I generally suggest that when fully-charged, our YellowTops will measure approximately 13.0-13.2. Fully-charged RedTops will generally measure approximately 12.6 to 12.8 volts. OPTIMA suggests that the typical output of an alternator should be approximately 13.7-14.7 volts which should be within the typical operating range of most vehicles. It is our experience that the alternator output of most vehicles is within the 14.0-14.4v range. The recommended charging voltage is a range, the stated minimum is just that, a minimum.
A common misconception is that starting your car and letting it idle for a short period will keep a battery charged. In reality this may result in a battery becoming progressively discharged because an alternator does not provide it’s peak output at idle. In fact, charging concerns at idle and during low-speed usage or short trips is a common point I make in many threads, including these-
NAXJA Forums -::- North American XJ Association - View Single Post - Stupid Red Top
*********.Com Bulletin Board - View Single Post - New battery thread who's #1
CK5 Forums - View Single Post - Optima batteries
Many people do make significant modifications to their vehicles, adding lights, winches, refrigerators, large stereos, etc.. and feel that upgrading their battery will compensate for the additional demands. While a new battery will help, many of these people ignore the need for wiring and alternator upgrades, which often leads to problems over time. If an alternator in those situations wasn’t up to the task of maintaining a YellowTop, it probably wouldn’t have been able to maintain any other battery either.
I did check the output of both the alternator in my pickup truck and my wife’s truck and both read just above 14 volts at idle and there is nothing special about either alternator. You stated that the recommended OPTIMA minimum is higher than most batteries, we have checked several manufacturers and have not been able to find anything to support this. A recommended charging voltage range of 13.7-14.7 volts is certainly not uncommon for any battery, including competitive brands. I did take a look at the charging instructions for two other battery brands, to see if our specified voltage range is outside the norm and I actually found the recommended OPTIMA range to be broader than the other two companies, with one suggesting a minimum of 14.1 and a maximum of 14.7 volts for deep-cycle charging. Some manufacturers also recommend using their proprietary chargers.
A battery does spend its entire existence either charging or discharging, even if it is only discharging at a very low rate. That’s why we recommend a battery tender or maintainer for any vehicle that doesn’t see daily use. Keeping a battery charged at or above 12.4 volts will help extend the life of the battery, regardless of brand. If you have statistics regarding the number of batteries other manufacturers sell and what their return rate is, feel free to share them.
Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
Optima Batteries | Facebook
JK Jedi
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,468
Likes: 221
From: SE Michigan
The Red Top is not a deep discharge battery.....letting a battery sit for 1 year 5 months, is going to deep discharge it. Your red top failed because you purchased the wrong battery for your use.
JK Freak
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 628
Likes: 0
From: Lohman, Missouri
RednRoll: I sincerely want to thank you for your posts here. I purchased a red top Optima this spring and have been concerned that since that time I have read nothing but complaints about Optima in general. I agonized yellow vs. red for a couple months before I bought the red but I bought red finally because I really didn't feel the deep cycle was right for me. I think I lucked into the right choice. I have a winch but also have the means whereby to run the idle up when winching so unless I am stuck in a mud pit (I don't like water crossings very much anyway) I should be good. So far my JK is a daily driver and it will remain that way for a time so I think the charge will remain high. Thanks again