Wheeling an expensive Jeep.
03-17-2017, 06:27 AM
#41
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Having said the above, I do believe they will continue to TRY to make the Wrangler appealing to a wider audience. They are in business to make money, after all. I don't blame them for that. It may lead to an improved on-road ride or better road handing or better braking, or more creature comforts in the cabin. Hard to say.
03-17-2017, 07:08 AM
#42
It will, and it has already. The current JK (and JKU) are improved in every way (except weight) over their predecessor (Mk1 JK) including on-road and off-road performance as well as the creature comforts and general utility, and the first JK was a marked improvement in every way over the TJ(/LJ) which was improved over the YJ and so on. The only thing I can see that may drive FCA in the opposite direction is the push towards a hybrid drivetrain, which will sacrifice reliability especially off-road in favor of fuel economy or the outcry for a diesel engine which will sacrifice performance, but in both cases I suspect it will be an option and not the only choice.
03-17-2017, 08:16 AM
#43
You have sacrificed a lot of on-road performance
The modified JK thing with the lifts, bumpers, lights, and big tires (not so much yours in particular, but the trend...) is pretty much the same thing to me as the "sport compact" thing with the neon lights and 0-offset tires and big spoilers and coffee can exhaust ...
The modified JK thing with the lifts, bumpers, lights, and big tires (not so much yours in particular, but the trend...) is pretty much the same thing to me as the "sport compact" thing with the neon lights and 0-offset tires and big spoilers and coffee can exhaust ...
When you upgrade to 33s you'll notice a huge difference at the jeep park or on a trail and with the right tire, it will drive great on the road. Tire upgrades are legitimate functonal upgrades to off road performance. It's nothing compared to a performance exhaust on a Honda, that would be more comparible to a performance exhaust on a Jeep Wrangler.
Just go to any jeep fest for an easy comparison and watch how the stock JKs do vs 33s, 35s, 37s and even the 40s.
My 33s are wider than the sport stock 255s and my rims are not deeply offset like those stock rims. My JK feels more stable with the new rims and wider tire footprint despite the 2.5' lift. I'm not an engineer and I don't work for Jeep so I'm sure I'm probably wrong with this assessment however I know what I feel when driving and my JK feels as good on the road as it did before, the trans shift points just needs to be readjusted. Gas mileage dropped from 19avg to 17.5. Anything over 33' would be a huge strain on the 3.21 gears.
I've driven a buddies JKU on 35s with a 4' long arm lift and it drives very good on the road. Mopar offers a long arm 2' and 4' kit, they're TF lifts with Fox shocks, all aftermarket products.
It's weird to debate fellow jeep owners that jeep mods are foolish and for cosmetics only. This is usally discussed with the girlfriend or non jeep owners.
Last edited by RnR; 03-17-2017 at 08:45 AM.
03-17-2017, 09:12 AM
#44
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I'm an adult, I don't make choices then complain about them. I think we all know what we're getting into when we start modding.
03-17-2017, 10:04 AM
#45
When you upgrade to 33s you'll notice a huge difference at the jeep park or on a trail and with the right tire, it will drive great on the road. Tire upgrades are legitimate functonal upgrades to off road performance....
My 33s are wider than the sport stock 255s and my rims are not deeply offset like those stock rims. My JK feels more stable with the new rims and wider tire footprint despite the 2.5' lift. I'm not an engineer and I don't work for Jeep so I'm sure I'm probably wrong with this assessment however I know what I feel when driving and my JK feels as good on the road as it did before...
It's weird to debate fellow jeep owners that jeep mods are foolish and for cosmetics only.
My 33s are wider than the sport stock 255s and my rims are not deeply offset like those stock rims. My JK feels more stable with the new rims and wider tire footprint despite the 2.5' lift. I'm not an engineer and I don't work for Jeep so I'm sure I'm probably wrong with this assessment however I know what I feel when driving and my JK feels as good on the road as it did before...
It's weird to debate fellow jeep owners that jeep mods are foolish and for cosmetics only.
I am talking about actual measurable improvements compared with stock functionality that does not result in a reduction in actual measurable performance on the road. I am not talking about what it makes you feel when you drive it. Your feelings are irrelevant, frankly. That's the point of "for looks". It looks more aggressive, tougher, bigger, etc., you will perceive that it has the desired effect on the trail etc.
Raising the ride height increases ground clearance (except for the lowest point, beneath the diff and axle) at the expense of handling and other factors (braking). It is only a legitimate performance improvement if you were otherwise encountering obstacles you couldn't clear due to lack of ground clearance. Most likely you lifted it almost completely for looks, or to gain tire clearance for your bigger tires, which are also almost completely for looks.
Taller tires also increase ground clearance at the expense of handling, braking, acceleration, etc. It also increases the ability to roll over certain obstacles but only very slightly since it's only a 3% increase in diameter in your case so this is minimal. The wider tire actually reduces off-road performance by virtually all measures and the wider "stance" aka track width is ordinarily not a good thing for any purpose besides being required for your bigger tires to not rub (well, and to make you feel like it's more stable because it's wider). It reduces all measurable performance both on and off road. It's purely cosmetic to the detriment of actual, measurable performance. The increased rotating and unsprung mass of the bigger tires is added weight in the worst possible place for it to be added, and to make it worse you probably put a bigger spare on as well which adds the same amount of weight to the next-to-worst possible place (perimeter of the vehicle). There is a case to be made for an off-road performance tradeoff if the tires are either mud-compatible like MT tires and you need to drive in mud, or they are more durable due to more plies etc. but both of these are a severe tradeoff to on-road performance. Go do a 70-0 braking test and run a slalom, especially over a rough surface, you will be alarmed at just how much worse it is with your "upgraded" tires compared to a stock JK sport on [truly godawful] GY Wrangler tires.
Your heavier bumpers do not improve performance at all, and just add weight in almost the worst possible place with no upside except for appearance. Sure, you might think it is improving your approach angle but really, were you rubbing the stock bumper on approach? If so you wouldn't be able to clean that obstacle anyway without your 37" tires and a 4+ inch lift, we're talking the domain of dedicated off-road buggies here. It's easier to mount a winch in the heavier bumpers and they often have a hoop that you can use to mount some lights that are also almost entirely cosmetic. In my case I changed my bumpers for heavy steel bumpers and I can vouch for the reduced performance.
Again, don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against folks who mod their Jeeps and I hope you do whatever you want. I do get a little bit annoyed when anyone makes choices that make their 99% road vehicle less safe on the road where other people (like me) have to drive, and by increasing braking distance you are indeed making such a change. That's annoying but still there are a lot of far less safe vehicles out there. Even your modded Jeep will out-brake that 80s Ford truck pulling a 16' trailer being driven by the local lawn service guy, or the 90s Neon with 13" wire wheels and those ridiculous white-wall tires. My main thing is for us to stop pretending like this is really justified by off-road performance. Be honest with yourself, it's for looks. That's OK. I do that all the time, and you should beef up your ego to the point that you can handle doing stuff to your Jeep just because you want it to look big and tough.
03-20-2017, 03:56 PM
#49
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This is why I bought a Jeep Wrangler. I was retired from the Army, my daughter married a soldier, and my handicapped son had passed away, just me and my wife. I had another job and she worked too. We talked about what to get, a cycle (probably a trike), a corvette or some other type sports car, a jeep. The cycle could only be used limited, about 1/2 the year and in decent weather. The corvette or other sports car is usually a cruiser, could be driven in bad weather. The jeep could be driven in all weather, driven every day, and an added plus, it could be driven off road. That sealed the deal, still have the 2007 JKU, just bought a 2010 JKU. In fact today, I mistakenly got on the interstate and needed to get off, I just turned around across the medium between the barriers. The 07 is just getting finished with repairs from trips to the wood line. Found out there is a trip planned Memorial Day weekend, plan on talking the 07 out there. The 10 is staying on pavement mostly. Just trips across the medium mostly.
Last edited by OverKill; 03-20-2017 at 04:00 PM.
03-22-2017, 12:22 AM
#50
JK Enthusiast
I never suggested they were foolish but they are primarily for looks, or in your case, to make you feel differently about it.
I am talking about actual measurable improvements compared with stock functionality that does not result in a reduction in actual measurable performance on the road. I am not talking about what it makes you feel when you drive it. Your feelings are irrelevant, frankly. That's the point of "for looks". It looks more aggressive, tougher, bigger, etc., you will perceive that it has the desired effect on the trail etc.
Raising the ride height increases ground clearance (except for the lowest point, beneath the diff and axle) at the expense of handling and other factors (braking). It is only a legitimate performance improvement if you were otherwise encountering obstacles you couldn't clear due to lack of ground clearance. Most likely you lifted it almost completely for looks, or to gain tire clearance for your bigger tires, which are also almost completely for looks.
Taller tires also increase ground clearance at the expense of handling, braking, acceleration, etc. It also increases the ability to roll over certain obstacles but only very slightly since it's only a 3% increase in diameter in your case so this is minimal. The wider tire actually reduces off-road performance by virtually all measures and the wider "stance" aka track width is ordinarily not a good thing for any purpose besides being required for your bigger tires to not rub (well, and to make you feel like it's more stable because it's wider). It reduces all measurable performance both on and off road. It's purely cosmetic to the detriment of actual, measurable performance. The increased rotating and unsprung mass of the bigger tires is added weight in the worst possible place for it to be added, and to make it worse you probably put a bigger spare on as well which adds the same amount of weight to the next-to-worst possible place (perimeter of the vehicle). There is a case to be made for an off-road performance tradeoff if the tires are either mud-compatible like MT tires and you need to drive in mud, or they are more durable due to more plies etc. but both of these are a severe tradeoff to on-road performance. Go do a 70-0 braking test and run a slalom, especially over a rough surface, you will be alarmed at just how much worse it is with your "upgraded" tires compared to a stock JK sport on [truly godawful] GY Wrangler tires.
Your heavier bumpers do not improve performance at all, and just add weight in almost the worst possible place with no upside except for appearance. Sure, you might think it is improving your approach angle but really, were you rubbing the stock bumper on approach? If so you wouldn't be able to clean that obstacle anyway without your 37" tires and a 4+ inch lift, we're talking the domain of dedicated off-road buggies here. It's easier to mount a winch in the heavier bumpers and they often have a hoop that you can use to mount some lights that are also almost entirely cosmetic. In my case I changed my bumpers for heavy steel bumpers and I can vouch for the reduced performance.
Again, don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against folks who mod their Jeeps and I hope you do whatever you want. I do get a little bit annoyed when anyone makes choices that make their 99% road vehicle less safe on the road where other people (like me) have to drive, and by increasing braking distance you are indeed making such a change. That's annoying but still there are a lot of far less safe vehicles out there. Even your modded Jeep will out-brake that 80s Ford truck pulling a 16' trailer being driven by the local lawn service guy, or the 90s Neon with 13" wire wheels and those ridiculous white-wall tires. My main thing is for us to stop pretending like this is really justified by off-road performance. Be honest with yourself, it's for looks. That's OK. I do that all the time, and you should beef up your ego to the point that you can handle doing stuff to your Jeep just because you want it to look big and tough.
I am talking about actual measurable improvements compared with stock functionality that does not result in a reduction in actual measurable performance on the road. I am not talking about what it makes you feel when you drive it. Your feelings are irrelevant, frankly. That's the point of "for looks". It looks more aggressive, tougher, bigger, etc., you will perceive that it has the desired effect on the trail etc.
Raising the ride height increases ground clearance (except for the lowest point, beneath the diff and axle) at the expense of handling and other factors (braking). It is only a legitimate performance improvement if you were otherwise encountering obstacles you couldn't clear due to lack of ground clearance. Most likely you lifted it almost completely for looks, or to gain tire clearance for your bigger tires, which are also almost completely for looks.
Taller tires also increase ground clearance at the expense of handling, braking, acceleration, etc. It also increases the ability to roll over certain obstacles but only very slightly since it's only a 3% increase in diameter in your case so this is minimal. The wider tire actually reduces off-road performance by virtually all measures and the wider "stance" aka track width is ordinarily not a good thing for any purpose besides being required for your bigger tires to not rub (well, and to make you feel like it's more stable because it's wider). It reduces all measurable performance both on and off road. It's purely cosmetic to the detriment of actual, measurable performance. The increased rotating and unsprung mass of the bigger tires is added weight in the worst possible place for it to be added, and to make it worse you probably put a bigger spare on as well which adds the same amount of weight to the next-to-worst possible place (perimeter of the vehicle). There is a case to be made for an off-road performance tradeoff if the tires are either mud-compatible like MT tires and you need to drive in mud, or they are more durable due to more plies etc. but both of these are a severe tradeoff to on-road performance. Go do a 70-0 braking test and run a slalom, especially over a rough surface, you will be alarmed at just how much worse it is with your "upgraded" tires compared to a stock JK sport on [truly godawful] GY Wrangler tires.
Your heavier bumpers do not improve performance at all, and just add weight in almost the worst possible place with no upside except for appearance. Sure, you might think it is improving your approach angle but really, were you rubbing the stock bumper on approach? If so you wouldn't be able to clean that obstacle anyway without your 37" tires and a 4+ inch lift, we're talking the domain of dedicated off-road buggies here. It's easier to mount a winch in the heavier bumpers and they often have a hoop that you can use to mount some lights that are also almost entirely cosmetic. In my case I changed my bumpers for heavy steel bumpers and I can vouch for the reduced performance.
Again, don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against folks who mod their Jeeps and I hope you do whatever you want. I do get a little bit annoyed when anyone makes choices that make their 99% road vehicle less safe on the road where other people (like me) have to drive, and by increasing braking distance you are indeed making such a change. That's annoying but still there are a lot of far less safe vehicles out there. Even your modded Jeep will out-brake that 80s Ford truck pulling a 16' trailer being driven by the local lawn service guy, or the 90s Neon with 13" wire wheels and those ridiculous white-wall tires. My main thing is for us to stop pretending like this is really justified by off-road performance. Be honest with yourself, it's for looks. That's OK. I do that all the time, and you should beef up your ego to the point that you can handle doing stuff to your Jeep just because you want it to look big and tough.
I'm lucky that if I want high performance, I have other vehicles to drive. If I want something smaller and maneuverable, I drive my jeep. I'm happy with it with all the things you, mistakenly, think are purely cosmetic. I'm pretty certain that unless someone is looking really close, they won't see the skid plates that I have. Do you want me to tell you about the time I was rocking on the skid plates to get off a rock? An unmodified jeep could not have done it, and there were a bunch who tried. Do you want me to tell you about the time I was four wheeling with someone that is a known four wheeling icon? You would be amazed at the cosmetic modifications he made to his jeep. By the way, unless someone knew really well what to look for, they wouldn't be able to tell. How about someone like Nena Barlow. She is pretty well known in jeep circles, and her jeep is highly modified.
You can justify not modding your jeep. I get it. I happen to mod every one of my personal vehicles. Some you can see, because I do like bigger wheels and tires, and some you can't, because I leave my hood closed so no one can see the supercharger on my truck. Although there may be a lot of what you consider appearance items, Form has always followed function, and because of that there are going to be guys that set the function to improve the abilities of their vehicles, and there will be guys that will follow the form so that they can be cool like the guys that really do it. I prefer to be a doer.