Good video, makes good points and stresses geometry over length. I don't agree with hanging the lower frame mount down on a long arm, I would rather raise the axle lower to flatten the link.OF course link separation and clearance above the axle may dictate the lower axle control arm bracket. Just really depends on what you are building for.

Don is awesome! I just ordered some custom Rock Krawler hood decals. Great communication. Should have them next week.

It just isn't that easy. We primarily sell through distributors who sell through shops to a consumer. From here, we can track how many have been sold to distributors and what distributors and that's where it ends other than some minor direct to customer sales here and there. The only way we would reach end users is through social media which is why we made that post on Facebook. As far as failures, the OP of that thread, if you click on his build thread, has cracks coming from nearly everything he has welded to his jeep, he created his own long arm system using our 3rd link upper mount. It is not an accurate representation of our products when used as one of our complete systems. The ONLY other claim to have seen cracks is Dirtman who can not substantiate these claims. We do take this seriously, we study the photos, and will look at any data that someone has to offer. I wish Tom had photos of the crack he said he had seen.

You had a couple people report cracks in the single facebook post you made so there is another lie or did you not see that since you posted and ran. Several people had questions that were ignored. The three link design is just poor as it puts a lot of stress on that single upper welded to a thin gauge frame section. Add the weight of big tires and axles and it is just ticking bomb. I posted a photo of my "unsubstantiated" claim of frame cracking with a rear 3 link in the jkowners thread. I will post it here again.

http://www.jkfreaks.com/forums/attac...6&d=1358822445
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.jk-...7556baa54.jpeg

Lies, excuses, blame others, #cover up. You guys are awesome.

Buy Rock Krawler unless you are really going to wheel, then expect it to fail.

Rock Krawler "The Posers Choice in lifts" Just check out their Instagram account. You can't even tell what lift is on 95% of the jeeps in their photos.

Want to be a test pilot for a Rock Krawler product? Just buy one of our lifts. Help us design upgrades for our current lift lines. We will let You pay for the R&D.

"Abuse proof guarantee" unless you wheel hard or use any other mfg components in your lift. Make sure you get photos and measurements of the initial install so you can prove that it was installed correctly.

Tom, honestly dude, no coverups, no nothing. I don't do our facebook, instagram etc, I just had to go to facebook and read the comments on that photo, you're right, there's a couple there and we will dig deeper.

I don't even know what to say to you, you're inconsolable, I'm sorry you and Jeremy had a fight forever ago but to take something personal and drive it this far is non-sense. We do plenty of R&D, claims that we don't is simply false. We have more production kits running and winning KOH than any other brand, if there is a harder way to test products, I haven't seen it.

I guess personal safety is just nonsense to your company. I know if I put out a product that had the potential for a catastrophic failure, it would keep me up at night.

It's not a fight from forever ago, you guys constantly call me a lier, send people PM's telling them I don't know what I am talking about, make false statements about things I have said and try to discredit me. If you want to dish that crap out then be ready for taking it.

Most of your customers don't know what they are doing and buy your products because of misleading and deceptive marketing. Warrantee claims tend to be ignored until someone starts a thread about it when you guys ask them to call and take care of it. I see your kits as one of the most replaced kits with other brands along with Rough Country. not something you can really track but it is a fact and should tell you something about your products. Hopefully someone searching for lifts will find these things out before pulling the trigger on a RK lift because of a poser shot on instagram.

You keep saying most winning production lift at KOH, how many wins actually? What classes?

You’re like a damn child. We get it, they get it... you don’t like rock crawler stuff, their practices, or anything that has their name on it. You’ve said your piece. Leave it alone because now you’re the one looking like a stubborn bully who has to win the argument and have the last word.

I think I remember you saying at some point in another thread that you have an off-road shop? Can you please let me know what shop it is so I can be sure to steer any friends of mine away? I would be embarrassed to represent any business of mine the way you represent yourself here. At least rock crawler here has been professional for the most part towards your rudeness.

Dirtman may not be "nice" to Rock Krawler, but nothing he has said is actually false. I had a lot more RK stuff on my JK a few years ago (track bars, coils, and control arms). The track bar bushings blew out pretty fast. Trashed those, and sold the control arms. My RK coils are only 3.5 years old, and they're flaking off and are rusting like cray. My buddies MC coils are just as old and look good. Oh btw, my coils sagged on the passenger side. People blamed it on the gas tank, calling it the JK lean. I swapped the coils side to side, and now the driver side sags :clap:. Will be replaced with MC coils soon. My buddy had the old RK tie rod and track bar. Once his ends blew out, it was easier to just replace the components than to try and work with RK. They sent him ends that didn't fit. I believe they updated the design somewhere along the road.

Dirtman has more experience than 99% of people on this forum when it comes to JK part manufacturers. He's equally active on a few forums, and has installed plenty of different kits (even ones he hates like Teraflex and Rock Krawler). Don't undermine his knowledge, or let him butting heads with RK discredit his experiences. I'd happily send my rig to his shop if I was on the West coast.

As for not keeping track of customers, distributers and retailers likely use some sort of data entry tool like Salesforce. It's 2020. If they really wanted to, they could pull lists of people who ordered these RK lifts. At least most of them.

The dudes at Rock Krawler are cool and nice. I'm just not keen on replacing the same parts over and over.

I believe dirtman has a lot of experience and knowledge. But he lacks class and tact. What he says may be true, I won’t doubt that. But saying it over and over the way he has is a discredit to this forum and to himself. This forum is already painfully slow and lacking participation. I think when people see a forum that has drama, they don’t want to participate. I would t want to either nor would I support a business that conducts itself that way. There’s plenty of smart people that carry themselves well... dirtman can learn a thing or two there.

You don't have read my posts if you don't want, I think there is a block feature you can enact. What is your dog in the fight? Are you running RK stuff and don't want people saying bad things about what you chose to buy?
RK is not special, I criticize several lift companies and products. If I see something I give my opinion good or bad. When Metal Cloak came out with their duroflex joints I criticized them and in fact broke one. They reached out to me and replaced all 6 joints I had from them no questions asked. They make a better joint now with a forged housing. Teraflex has terrible geometry in their long arms and their speed bumps are a joke being a piece of foam in a can and charging almost as much as a hydraulic bump.....

I have no dog in the fight, I am more of a metalcloak fan to be honest. I run their fenders, bumpers, and steering goodies. I don’t have a RK lift either, my lift is the mopar stage 3 (teraflex). It came with the Jeep when I got it otherwise I’d use a metalcloak lift too.

I just think you’re a bit out of line here. You’ve said your piece, let it be. I’ve read a lot of your posts and admire your work. Your argument here just makes you look bad.

Personal safety is paramount. There is no question to that.

We have a win with Jessi's car in 2018 in 4600, the car has more wins but with a mix of drivers and different setups. Dan Fresh has a couple wins with our kits in Baja. John Grounds has several wins and a bunch of podiums, one of which with my fat ass in the car, in 4500 in other ultra4 races with 2 completions at KOH with our production arm packages although we built that car with coilovers and bypasses all around for 4500 class and that shock package is not production available, when Jeremy owned the car he raced hammers twice, once DNF'd after a winch failure and once timed out but completed the course. Jon Schafer was 2019 East Coast Regional Champs and 2nd overall in National points for 4600, Justin Baney in 4600 with a production kit, Michael Justo in 4600 with a production kit who was very successful in east coat and is now racing 4800 using our joints, shocks and some other parts on a totally custom build. Bill Schultz who has been successful in 4600 and just bought our 4800 car which has a hammers completion in it, Vince Blas in 4600, and a ton more. These are production kits, or at least production arm packages, some may have some deviation to meet rules etc but they're racing in ultra4, renegade race series, SCORE, etc. I genuinely don't know of another suspension manufacturer who is using production kits in offroad racing, certainly not in this volume.

As far as PRODUCTION kits, we buy vehicles and build out and test all kits before they go to production the X2 JK geometry that we just launched recently had been tested for 2 years without people knowing. Just because we don't post about how we are testing does not mean we are not testing, heck, there's 2 test mules here right now that people don't know about yet. You've always said we use customers as R&D and it's very simply, an inaccurate statement, we do use their information and feedback to plan future development. I feel all manufacturers would be wise to listen to their customer base for input on what the customers would like to see in the future.

Jessies 2018 4600 car has a custom suspension. You are claiming its a production RK kit? From your statement there are no winning KOH production class cars running a production lift from you.

This seems to be a false statement from you. "We have more production kits running and winning KOH than any other brand" Post 1026.

Nope can't do it as he is a post Whore esp when it comes to RK. He wants to be known as the "King of all things Jeep"
Not anymore of a expert than the majority of long term Jeep owners except in his own mind just like the pony tail idiot on WOL.

Come on Cary, you know me. I know you like RK but I am no where trying to be king of all things jeep.

for some reason this always comes to mind. RK would not warranty this and there was a fairly long discussion between the two.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.jk-...1e7285ce2.jpeg

Jessi's car had a JK X Factor Long arm. We wanted Gerald to build it with our One Ton arms or build it as an offroad pro with straight aluminum links but it was a production X Factor Long Arm as he wanted the high clearance arms for the lowers. Johnny modified things as he saw fit for the car and to adapt to his axles, he had cut out one of the crossmembers under the car and replaced it with his own with integrated mounts for the lowers, this was before the 4600 rule change regarding modifying crossmembers. The car later went to a triangulated rear upper setup and that's what ran in 2019 when she lost steering in Cougar Buttes.

Interesting, the savvy off road facebook page has the car shown with a triangulated rear upper with FK rod ends. Dated December 27, 2017 I see a mix of RK stuff and custom, not a production kit. Maybe that is a different car.

I called MetalCloak yesterday and they said that they do not recommend doing a 3.5" coil or 4" coil with their long arms kits. He said that their 4.5" Long Arms were built to work with the 4.5' coil. And if different coils are used, it will ruin the trajectory or geometry of the arms.

Maybe someone more experienced with this can chime in but I’m surprised they said it would ruin the geometry of their arms. Going from a 4.5” to a 3.5” coil will barely change the angles of the links, I’m guessing the angles would change by a few degrees at most. Is that a lot of change for a suspension setup?

I can't see why it would matter on the front (radial arms) on the back it may be because of the relocation brackets? Still have adjustable arms though. I can't see it being that big a deal over 1" Most companies like RK use the same frame brackets no matter the lift height which goes back to my point of most long arm kits having poor geometry.

Do you have any good references for reading about proper linked suspension geometry? I’d like to learn more but internet searches can bring too wide of an opinion base verses factual info.

I thought it would work too but I guess not.

It will work.

I guess if MC is saying no then I would take their word for it as they are the ones you will be dealing with if you have issues.

I agree. I would never go against a manufacturer's advise such as them.

The long arm is already a huge upgrade over the stock short arms with regards to geometry. 1" is not enough to make a difference to justify staying with the short arms imo. The ride quality over bumps, and anti-squat on hill climbs will be very noticeable improvements. Like Dirtman said, most all other JK long arms on the market use the same bracket locations for different lift heights. Is it ideal? Nope. Will it work with zero issues? Yep.

Nobody is going to grill him for his coils. Perceived lift height is so variable depending on how your Jeep is kitted out. Metalcloak isn't going to give him the RK runaround of trying to divert blame on the end user. Their stuff works, and I'm sure they have less warranty claims than all the other JK suspension manufacturers out there.

He probably spoke to a salesman instead of someone with technical knowledge.

Obviously, do whatever you're comfortable with! It's your money and Jeep. This is just my $0.02.

People say you don't "need" a drag link flip until you go over 3.5"...but I just did it on a 2.5" lift (netted 3") and it was a night and day improvement. :dontknow2:

Do you have any good references for reading about proper linked suspension geometry? I’d like to learn more but internet searches can bring too wide of an opinion base verses factual info.

There is no "this is how it has to be set up" to go by. You will set up a rock crawler different than a go fast. Generally go fast will have a flatter lower link with as wide as you can do mounts on the axle. You do have some general rules to go by. Separation should be 25% of tire size. Upper links should be at least 80% the length of the lowers to control pinion change. Locating the lower frame mounts close to the output shaft will help with drive line angles and reduced bind, Where the upper and lower come together at a point out in space will affect things like anti squat. Shock angle will affect the overall travel. Of course you are dealing with a factory vehicle in which a long arm suspension was not designed for and things typically get in the way. Mainly the fuel tank and exhaust. But you also have up travel clearance to deal, do you care about brackets hanging down below the axle that can catch on stuff? Same thing with shocks, where you place them may dictate the arm locations or other things like a sway bar

. This is a good site that covers the basics Suspension Encyclopedia/4Wheel Underground. Its been around a long time. You can also find treads on Pirate4x4 and down load the 4 link calculator to play with link mount locations and see how it will affect the ride. There are also books you can buy if you search vehicle suspensions.

Of course there is the price, if you can't cut and weld than you should really expect to spend $10k+ on a long arm set up. Personally I see other components that would be better to upgrade for that kind of money, mainly axles. And if spending $10K on a suspension I would get it set up right and not take the shortcuts most kits take. Like Bora Bora said though its your jeep and your money.