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when to use antiseize

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Old Mar 24, 2009 | 10:10 AM
  #11  
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Interesting topic. As I learned it, MB is right. The torque is based on the preload for a given size and pitch of bolt, but I think he may have explained it not quite correctly. If I recall correctly, the torque, or preload value, is the limit, or breaking point, for whatever is lesser the value of 1. the bolt's tensile strength, 2. the strength of whatever you are screwing it into, or 3, the compressive strength of whatever is between the bolt and the surface you are screwing it into. I hope that makes sense and is correct. It has been a while since I had to learn this stuff, someone please correct me if I am wrong.

Now, when a bolt gets screwed it, the elasticity of the steel combined with the cylindrical wedge, basically make a spring, and it is the force of the spring exerting pressure on the surrounding material that holds it in place, and this is also where the friction comes from. Theoretically, if you torque the bolt to spec, then it will never come loose. If it is under torqued, then it will come loose because it has not effectively become a spring, thats why there is loctite. If it is over torqued, the bolt is in the elastic region, which means it has gotten to a point where it will not return to its original state. Kind of like when you are playing with the spring in a pen and pull it too far apart and it won't compress anymore. Thats why people will use new bolts especially on engine parts, because you can't really tell if a bolt has been elasticized. So, adding more torque to the bolt is a bad thing as you have deformed the bolt, or worse yet, the surrounding material.

How does anti-seize play into all this? Well, it reduces the friction to reduce binding and prevents cold welding and corrosion. That much I know. However, I don't really know how it plays into the effectiveness of the bolt's holding capability. It has no effect on the stretch of the bolt, other than it makes it easier to over torque it because it acts as a lubricant. The way I learned to do it was to put bolts in the way the factory did it: use antiseize when they do, loctite when they do, and nothing when they do. Now, if you are planning on routinely switching parts, like we often do on our suspensions, go ahead and use anti seize, and torque to spec. But, as a trade off of the eventual ease of removal, plan on spending some time validating the torque on these bolts somewhat regularly (re-torquing).

What I do is the following. Always use new bolts, tighten to torque - never overtighten, and make a decision if I am planning on having to remove the bolt sometime in the near future. If yes, then I will apply anti-seize and resign myself to checking them at every oil change. And if it is someone else's vehicle, I never put antiseize on a bolt that didn't have it originally unless they tell me to.

As to the death wobble issue. I never really thought about this before, but what just came to mind is that it may indeed have to do with the torque on the bolts, but not so much with the bolts but with the material that the track bars and such are made of. If you remember what I wrote earlier about the torque value being based on 3 things, it could be that the material the aftermarket bar is made of has a different compressive strength than the OEM part, causing the torque required to hold the bolt in place to change because the bolt or the compressed materials are being damaged.

Okay, I'm done for now. Someone correct me if I am wrong, it has been a while.
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Old Mar 24, 2009 | 01:55 PM
  #12  
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There is some critically important info in this thread, thanks all for the responses
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Old Mar 24, 2009 | 04:10 PM
  #13  
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I use it on anything that has to do with exhaust bolts. It seems like they always break. I had it happen tonight while working on 02 sensors and on installing a new muffler on my daughters Liberty. What a PITA
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Old Mar 24, 2009 | 04:50 PM
  #14  
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If we wanted to have extra track bar bolts on hand do we have to get them at the dealer or is there something I could get at the hardware store?
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Old Mar 24, 2009 | 06:48 PM
  #15  
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get 9/16 grade 8 bolts at good bolt vendor,probably stronger,definately cheaper than dealer,tighter fit in trackarm holes and not on backorder like everyting else from the dealer,can also get metric bolts from same source as well,just make sure at least grade 10.9(for metric fastners)I carry spare bolts for most of my suspension components,none sourced from dealership,lost a front trackarm bolt once while driving,now that was a DEATH WOBBLE
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Old Mar 24, 2009 | 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by rickl
get 9/16 grade 8 bolts at good bolt vendor,probably stronger,definately cheaper than dealer,tighter fit in trackarm holes and not on backorder like everyting else from the dealer,can also get metric bolts from same source as well,just make sure at least grade 10.9(for metric fastners)I carry spare bolts for most of my suspension components,none sourced from dealership,lost a front trackarm bolt once while driving,now that was a DEATH WOBBLE

So I can just go to the hardware store and ask for 9/16 grade 8 bolts? Will they fit the stock nuts?
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Old Mar 24, 2009 | 07:42 PM
  #17  
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You better be careful. A LOT of heavy suspension fasteners are grade 10 and sometimes even grade 12. You can't tell by the color and now you cannot even tell by the code on some of them anymore. If it was mine and I wanted an extra, I'd just cough up for the Mopar piece.
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Old Mar 24, 2009 | 08:14 PM
  #18  
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MB gave some great advice and information. I did a lot of tests of various grades of Antiseize over the past 40 years. First off, it is not designed as a lubricant. It is designed to work at certain heat ranges so things can be disassembled. Exhaust manifold bolts, turbos, etc. Then when it comes to grades of it, there are several. For sparkplugs, you need to use a graphite antiseize. Not an aluminum based one on aluminum heads. I have seen it when used on the wrong types of objects, specifically two different metals, actually seize from the use of antiseize. I have found that AeroShell #3 grease to be the best thing to use on threaded components that have to be disassembled years later. Tie rod ends, etc.

The worst example of someone using antiseize in the wrong place was on a set of wheel bearings. The vehicle ran about 11 miles before the wheel on one side came off and the other side was about to fall off. Never lube a bearing as this stuff can be very abrasive.
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Old Mar 24, 2009 | 08:23 PM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by RedneckJeep
You better be careful. A LOT of heavy suspension fasteners are grade 10 and sometimes even grade 12. You can't tell by the color and now you cannot even tell by the code on some of them anymore. If it was mine and I wanted an extra, I'd just cough up for the Mopar piece.
Good idea I found em on Moparpartsamerica.com
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Old Mar 25, 2009 | 07:29 AM
  #20  
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i don't want you to think that I'm saying bolts are bolts, but, bolts are bolts. If you select the right grade, size, and thread, it doesn't matter if they come from DM or a hardware store. The thing is, you have to be careful. If there are some cheap ones that come in a box of a 100 and cost less than one single bolt, chances are they are not up to par. If you go to a reputable hardware store and buy them - go ahead and ask for help - you won't have any problems. They will still be expensive, but I have found that they are cheaper than at the dealer.
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