Finally real answers: Maine laws lift / ABS / tires / inspection
04-26-2010, 04:31 PM
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Finally real answers: Maine laws lift / ABS / tires / inspection
Okay, after weeks of searching for the answers, and reading some confusing and even wrong information on various sites, I finally got the answers tonight and I'll share them with the group, hopefully clearing up any confusion about Maine vehicle inspections with regard to tire sizes.
As of today (April 26, 2010) the current version of the Maine Vehicle Inspection document is dated December 15, 2006. A link to the document is on the Maine State Police web site:
http://www.maine.gov/dps/msp/license...n%20Manual.pdf
...and in case the filename changes and this link breaks -- I found it via the following page:
http://www.maine.gov/dps/msp/vehicle...spections.html
I'm just going to pick out the interesting tidbits in no particular order, and I suggest you look at the document to find context if needed.
Regarding tire sizes, the manual states, in the executuve summary portion that notes the most recent changes, that the Dec. 15, 2006 document:
Amends tire size regulations. This will clarify that vehicles
with or without ABS brakes can change the tire size within a
reasonable range, and require ABS*equipped vehicles with
altered tire size to appropriately change the vehicle’s
computer and document that change.
Regarding lifts, the manual says they are set by Maine statue as follows:
Vehicles up to and including 4,500 lbs GVWR 24 inches 26 inches
Vehicles from 4,501 lbs. to 7,501 lbs. GVWR 27 inches 29 inches
Vehicles from 7,501 lbs. to 10,000 lbs. GVWR 28 inches 30 inches
Note that most garages I spoke with (that's two...) seemed more concerned about satisfying the frame height requirement, rather than the overall tire diameter.
Regarding body lifts -- and note, this is BODY lifts not SUSPENSION lifts -- it appears that they are a not allowed on ABS-equipped vehicles:
Body lifts are permitted on any vehicle that is not equipped
with an anti*lock braking system, provided that they are
manufactured by an after market manufacturer, are designed for
the make and model vehicle on which they are installed, and
the kit is installed according to the manufacturer’s
recommendations.
Regarding suspension lifts -- appears they are allowed, and there's nothing here to say that you can't lift an ABS-equipped vehicle:
Suspension lifts are permitted if they are manufactured by an
after market manufacturer, are designed for the make and
model vehicle on which they are installed, and if the kit is
installed according to the manufacturer's recommendations.
The entire kit must be used.
Regarding tire sizes:
If the size of any tire is changed beyond the range of tires
recommended by the manufacturer on a vehicle that is equipped
with an anti*lock braking system, the vehicle’s computer
and/or other appropriate components must be changed,
re*programmed or modified so that the vehicle is synchronized
to the new tire size. This change must be documented, and
that documentation must be kept with the vehicle. The
documentation must include, at a minimum:
(1) The date of the alteration.
(2) The original and replacement tire sizes; and
(3) The name of the person who performed the re-
calibration or re-synchronization.
And now the confusing part:
Reject vehicle if it is equipped with tires that are more than
2 sizes larger or smaller than manufacturer’s recommended tire
sizes, or if any tire change results in more than a two*inch
change in overall tire diameter.
Okay... First, what's the definition of "sizes" -- is that millimeters of width (the "265" in 265/75R16 for example), or is that inches of overall diameter? It simply doesn't say. Second, what is "manufacturer's recommended tire sizes" -- is that the size listed on the driver's door sticker, or is it the largest size the manufacturer offered as an option, even if it wasn't what the vehicle was delivered with? If it's the former, that means since my sticker is 225/xxR16, I would be allowed only 245/xx. Thirdly, does "two-inch change" mean literally 2.0 inches, or does it imply you can ignore the fractional part, that is, if you have a 29.2 inch tire recommended, is a 31.9 still allowed, or are you limited to 31.2?
So....
On a whim I clicked on the site's link to email the State Police Public Information Officer for clarification, of course not even expecting a reply, but what the heck...
The next day I get an email from Commanding Officer Lt. Brian Scott, saying "please call me to discuss..." and offering a quick explanation of the tire size allowance.
I call him back and leave voice mail, and get a call back within 30 minutes. I'm already blown away by the email followup and callbacks from this state agency. To make a long story short, I spent the next 20 minutes asking detailed questions, and every single time the guy comes back with an intelligent answer. At one point he said something like "when we wrote the manual... this was our intention..." so I've got no doubt that I was talking with someone who KNEW as opposed to giving me opinion or interpretation.
Anyway, back to the long story short... here's what I learned, and this is fact as of the time of this posting and as of the Dec. 2006 doc:
- you may suspension-lift and increase tire size on an ABS-equipped vehicle
- you may not BODY lift an ABS-equipped vehicle (okay, that's the only thing I didn't specifically verify on the phone, but it's spelled out pretty clearly in the manual)
- max tire size is 2.0 inches larger than manufacturer's recommended sizes
- tire size refers to overall diameter in inches
- tire size does not refer to width
- tire size does not mean the "millimeters" portion of the metric spec (the "265" in 265/75R16, for example)
- manufacturer recommended size means the biggest diameter offered by the manufacturer, even as an option, even if that (biggest) tire was not what came with the vehicle
- the door sticker size isn't the final say. The final say is in the "tire speficiation guide" which is a publication that apparently lists vehicle years, makes, models, and all the "manufacturer's recommended sizes" available for that vehicle. The lieutenant says they get theirs from some place in Florida... apparently there are at least a few suppliers.
- tire width must be selected so that tire has unobstructed movement in normal operating conditions
- 2.0 inches means 2.0 inches, not anything above. Mr. Scott did the math for me right there on the phone -- calculated my max stock tire size (32x10 Rubi setup) as 32.05 inches, if I remember correctly, and said therefore my max allowable size is a 34.05 inches overall diameter. Don't take the numbers literally, but I think those are right... but the point is "2 sizes larger" means literally 2.0 inches and no more.
- if tire size is changed on an ABS-equipped vehicle, the ABS computer must be made aware of the new tire size by reflashing it with the new info.
- if owner reflashes the ABS, aftermarket units like AEV or superchip etc. are fine.. the intent of the Maine State Police was to push this responsibility on to the owner, and they tell the garage to basically do a "sanity check" on the documentation (i.e. make sure it's done and doesn't look bogus)
- if you have the ABS computer reflashed, you must document it (I think this means who did it, when, new & old info, using what equipment, etc... the details are not written in stone but just do the obvious). Mr. Scott says nobody is going to ask you to produce a receipt proving that you purchased your flash programmer, etc... but just do it right and document the change.
Sooooooooo there ya go. Well this may "be teh suck" for those wanting 35's or larger on their JK in Maine, given what I've heard about restrictions on modding off-roaders in this state, I was pleasantly surprised because in my case I really wanted 33's but it was beginning to sound like I couldn't legally use them and I've have to settle for 265/75r16 on my planned 2.5" lift which, although it's fine, might be just on the edge of acceptable IMHO. Turns out the 285/ is fine if I meet the rest of the criteria, which isn't hard to do. Note that on a JK, with my build it sounds like the 285/75r16 will stick out from the fender maybe 1/4 or 1/8 inch, so I'll just plan on getting Bushwacker fenders... an easy fix by simply Just Emptying Every Pocket.
I can't tell you how happy I was to finally hear some clarification on the Maine laws from someone who clearly knows what he's talking about. Mr. Scott then offered to go fetch his Tire Specification Guide and tell me exactly what I was allowed... he put me on hold, came back and found my 2010 JK, confirmed that yes it came with a 225/75R16 standard but that in FACT the 255/70R16 (32") tire was a manufacturer option, went through the calculation and told me 34" was allowed (specifically 34.05 I think, if I remember the # correctly).
Hats off to Lt. Scott for being so professional, knowledgeable, for taking the time to clarify all this and for responding so promptly to my questions.
As soon as I hung up the phone I ordered my 285's and looking forward to installing tires, wheels, lift, and reflashing this weekend!
As of today (April 26, 2010) the current version of the Maine Vehicle Inspection document is dated December 15, 2006. A link to the document is on the Maine State Police web site:
http://www.maine.gov/dps/msp/license...n%20Manual.pdf
...and in case the filename changes and this link breaks -- I found it via the following page:
http://www.maine.gov/dps/msp/vehicle...spections.html
I'm just going to pick out the interesting tidbits in no particular order, and I suggest you look at the document to find context if needed.
Regarding tire sizes, the manual states, in the executuve summary portion that notes the most recent changes, that the Dec. 15, 2006 document:
Amends tire size regulations. This will clarify that vehicles
with or without ABS brakes can change the tire size within a
reasonable range, and require ABS*equipped vehicles with
altered tire size to appropriately change the vehicle’s
computer and document that change.
Regarding lifts, the manual says they are set by Maine statue as follows:
Vehicles up to and including 4,500 lbs GVWR 24 inches 26 inches
Vehicles from 4,501 lbs. to 7,501 lbs. GVWR 27 inches 29 inches
Vehicles from 7,501 lbs. to 10,000 lbs. GVWR 28 inches 30 inches
Note that most garages I spoke with (that's two...) seemed more concerned about satisfying the frame height requirement, rather than the overall tire diameter.
Regarding body lifts -- and note, this is BODY lifts not SUSPENSION lifts -- it appears that they are a not allowed on ABS-equipped vehicles:
Body lifts are permitted on any vehicle that is not equipped
with an anti*lock braking system, provided that they are
manufactured by an after market manufacturer, are designed for
the make and model vehicle on which they are installed, and
the kit is installed according to the manufacturer’s
recommendations.
Regarding suspension lifts -- appears they are allowed, and there's nothing here to say that you can't lift an ABS-equipped vehicle:
Suspension lifts are permitted if they are manufactured by an
after market manufacturer, are designed for the make and
model vehicle on which they are installed, and if the kit is
installed according to the manufacturer's recommendations.
The entire kit must be used.
Regarding tire sizes:
If the size of any tire is changed beyond the range of tires
recommended by the manufacturer on a vehicle that is equipped
with an anti*lock braking system, the vehicle’s computer
and/or other appropriate components must be changed,
re*programmed or modified so that the vehicle is synchronized
to the new tire size. This change must be documented, and
that documentation must be kept with the vehicle. The
documentation must include, at a minimum:
(1) The date of the alteration.
(2) The original and replacement tire sizes; and
(3) The name of the person who performed the re-
calibration or re-synchronization.
And now the confusing part:
Reject vehicle if it is equipped with tires that are more than
2 sizes larger or smaller than manufacturer’s recommended tire
sizes, or if any tire change results in more than a two*inch
change in overall tire diameter.
Okay... First, what's the definition of "sizes" -- is that millimeters of width (the "265" in 265/75R16 for example), or is that inches of overall diameter? It simply doesn't say. Second, what is "manufacturer's recommended tire sizes" -- is that the size listed on the driver's door sticker, or is it the largest size the manufacturer offered as an option, even if it wasn't what the vehicle was delivered with? If it's the former, that means since my sticker is 225/xxR16, I would be allowed only 245/xx. Thirdly, does "two-inch change" mean literally 2.0 inches, or does it imply you can ignore the fractional part, that is, if you have a 29.2 inch tire recommended, is a 31.9 still allowed, or are you limited to 31.2?
So....
On a whim I clicked on the site's link to email the State Police Public Information Officer for clarification, of course not even expecting a reply, but what the heck...
The next day I get an email from Commanding Officer Lt. Brian Scott, saying "please call me to discuss..." and offering a quick explanation of the tire size allowance.
I call him back and leave voice mail, and get a call back within 30 minutes. I'm already blown away by the email followup and callbacks from this state agency. To make a long story short, I spent the next 20 minutes asking detailed questions, and every single time the guy comes back with an intelligent answer. At one point he said something like "when we wrote the manual... this was our intention..." so I've got no doubt that I was talking with someone who KNEW as opposed to giving me opinion or interpretation.
Anyway, back to the long story short... here's what I learned, and this is fact as of the time of this posting and as of the Dec. 2006 doc:
- you may suspension-lift and increase tire size on an ABS-equipped vehicle
- you may not BODY lift an ABS-equipped vehicle (okay, that's the only thing I didn't specifically verify on the phone, but it's spelled out pretty clearly in the manual)
- max tire size is 2.0 inches larger than manufacturer's recommended sizes
- tire size refers to overall diameter in inches
- tire size does not refer to width
- tire size does not mean the "millimeters" portion of the metric spec (the "265" in 265/75R16, for example)
- manufacturer recommended size means the biggest diameter offered by the manufacturer, even as an option, even if that (biggest) tire was not what came with the vehicle
- the door sticker size isn't the final say. The final say is in the "tire speficiation guide" which is a publication that apparently lists vehicle years, makes, models, and all the "manufacturer's recommended sizes" available for that vehicle. The lieutenant says they get theirs from some place in Florida... apparently there are at least a few suppliers.
- tire width must be selected so that tire has unobstructed movement in normal operating conditions
- 2.0 inches means 2.0 inches, not anything above. Mr. Scott did the math for me right there on the phone -- calculated my max stock tire size (32x10 Rubi setup) as 32.05 inches, if I remember correctly, and said therefore my max allowable size is a 34.05 inches overall diameter. Don't take the numbers literally, but I think those are right... but the point is "2 sizes larger" means literally 2.0 inches and no more.
- if tire size is changed on an ABS-equipped vehicle, the ABS computer must be made aware of the new tire size by reflashing it with the new info.
- if owner reflashes the ABS, aftermarket units like AEV or superchip etc. are fine.. the intent of the Maine State Police was to push this responsibility on to the owner, and they tell the garage to basically do a "sanity check" on the documentation (i.e. make sure it's done and doesn't look bogus)
- if you have the ABS computer reflashed, you must document it (I think this means who did it, when, new & old info, using what equipment, etc... the details are not written in stone but just do the obvious). Mr. Scott says nobody is going to ask you to produce a receipt proving that you purchased your flash programmer, etc... but just do it right and document the change.
Sooooooooo there ya go. Well this may "be teh suck" for those wanting 35's or larger on their JK in Maine, given what I've heard about restrictions on modding off-roaders in this state, I was pleasantly surprised because in my case I really wanted 33's but it was beginning to sound like I couldn't legally use them and I've have to settle for 265/75r16 on my planned 2.5" lift which, although it's fine, might be just on the edge of acceptable IMHO. Turns out the 285/ is fine if I meet the rest of the criteria, which isn't hard to do. Note that on a JK, with my build it sounds like the 285/75r16 will stick out from the fender maybe 1/4 or 1/8 inch, so I'll just plan on getting Bushwacker fenders... an easy fix by simply Just Emptying Every Pocket.
I can't tell you how happy I was to finally hear some clarification on the Maine laws from someone who clearly knows what he's talking about. Mr. Scott then offered to go fetch his Tire Specification Guide and tell me exactly what I was allowed... he put me on hold, came back and found my 2010 JK, confirmed that yes it came with a 225/75R16 standard but that in FACT the 255/70R16 (32") tire was a manufacturer option, went through the calculation and told me 34" was allowed (specifically 34.05 I think, if I remember the # correctly).
Hats off to Lt. Scott for being so professional, knowledgeable, for taking the time to clarify all this and for responding so promptly to my questions.
As soon as I hung up the phone I ordered my 285's and looking forward to installing tires, wheels, lift, and reflashing this weekend!
Last edited by mostlystock; 04-26-2010 at 05:25 PM.
04-26-2010, 04:36 PM
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285's dont stick out.. i drop a penny against my flares..doesnt hit tire.
they cant be that strict pulling everyone over for tires and lifts..
they prob dont even care unless your on 37's and 6inchs of lift..
32's 33's not that big of a diff... to notice driving down the road.
i can barley tell if 35's are 35's they look like 33's..
a cop wont see your jeep and slam his breaks to say your tires are a inch to big... come on he wont waste his time.
and jeeps dont stick out of the crowd... like say honda civic's...H2's...escalades, s2000's
those stick out to cops.
jeeps do not
they cant be that strict pulling everyone over for tires and lifts..
they prob dont even care unless your on 37's and 6inchs of lift..
32's 33's not that big of a diff... to notice driving down the road.
i can barley tell if 35's are 35's they look like 33's..
a cop wont see your jeep and slam his breaks to say your tires are a inch to big... come on he wont waste his time.
and jeeps dont stick out of the crowd... like say honda civic's...H2's...escalades, s2000's
those stick out to cops.
jeeps do not
04-26-2010, 05:35 PM
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> they cant be that strict pulling everyone over for tires and lifts..
I agree -- but it's not the cops I'm worried about, it's the inspection people at the garage -- especially after what I've heard from two local garages who don't really seem to know the rules (in one case I actually had to educate the guy... decent guy at local garage but he flat out just didn't know that ABS modded vehicles were allowed). Last thing I want is to be rejected, have them log the rejection in some state-wide database, have my vehicle off the road for a bogus reason, and all the hassle that could ensue.
> i can barley tell if 35's are 35's they look like 33's..
I've been obsessing about this four a few weeks now, and when I started I couldn't tell a 33 from a 37 (I'm serious). After studying hundreds of not thousands of photos and forum threads, I can pick out a tire to the inch with probably 95% accuracy.
Yes, it's the sign of a sick mind...
I am psyched for my long-awaited build, finally going to start. Just need to decide on which lift and will place the order tomorrow.
By the way, great choice on your combination of Soft 8, DuraTrac and TeraFlex leveling kit.
Last edited by mostlystock; 04-26-2010 at 05:38 PM.
04-27-2010, 08:54 AM
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Your Cragar Soft 8's may have 1/2 inch more backspacing than my Procomp 7089's (4.5"). A fellow forum member running my same (just ordered) 285's with Procomp 7089's says his tread sticks out tiny bit, and sidewall a little bit more. I think the key is the backspacing in this case as the numbers seem to be about right. The way I see it I'll just order Bushwackers or hack some homebrew fender extender in there if I'm hassled... close enough that I'll worry about it only if and when I need to.
> they cant be that strict pulling everyone over for tires and lifts..
I agree -- but it's not the cops I'm worried about, it's the inspection people at the garage -- especially after what I've heard from two local garages who don't really seem to know the rules (in one case I actually had to educate the guy... decent guy at local garage but he flat out just didn't know that ABS modded vehicles were allowed). Last thing I want is to be rejected, have them log the rejection in some state-wide database, have my vehicle off the road for a bogus reason, and all the hassle that could ensue.
> i can barley tell if 35's are 35's they look like 33's..
I've been obsessing about this four a few weeks now, and when I started I couldn't tell a 33 from a 37 (I'm serious). After studying hundreds of not thousands of photos and forum threads, I can pick out a tire to the inch with probably 95% accuracy.
Yes, it's the sign of a sick mind...
I am psyched for my long-awaited build, finally going to start. Just need to decide on which lift and will place the order tomorrow.
By the way, great choice on your combination of Soft 8, DuraTrac and TeraFlex leveling kit.
> they cant be that strict pulling everyone over for tires and lifts..
I agree -- but it's not the cops I'm worried about, it's the inspection people at the garage -- especially after what I've heard from two local garages who don't really seem to know the rules (in one case I actually had to educate the guy... decent guy at local garage but he flat out just didn't know that ABS modded vehicles were allowed). Last thing I want is to be rejected, have them log the rejection in some state-wide database, have my vehicle off the road for a bogus reason, and all the hassle that could ensue.
> i can barley tell if 35's are 35's they look like 33's..
I've been obsessing about this four a few weeks now, and when I started I couldn't tell a 33 from a 37 (I'm serious). After studying hundreds of not thousands of photos and forum threads, I can pick out a tire to the inch with probably 95% accuracy.
Yes, it's the sign of a sick mind...
I am psyched for my long-awaited build, finally going to start. Just need to decide on which lift and will place the order tomorrow.
By the way, great choice on your combination of Soft 8, DuraTrac and TeraFlex leveling kit.
