Believe me, over the past 15 years, I have seen millions of acres closed down in the Mojave Desert and many of these "roads" have been on published maps for over 100 years and I'll tell you, I'm pissed about it. But, as much as I hate to admit it, I can almost see and understand why they were closed. Unfortuanately, the yahoos out here in the west coast have done a brilliant job of making the case for the enviromentalists and the most we have been doing is to try and fight the enviromentalists. And, from my experience in talking to enviromentalists, they see our fighting them as giving a pass to the yahoos and this essentially makes us one of them. Need I say, if we can find a way to work with the enviromentalist instead of fighting them and take the fight to the yahoos together, I think we can all win. I'm not saying that it'll be easy to do but it is at least what I intend to try and do.

 

That sounds logic, but is based on the premise that the environmental groups give a rats arse. I don't think they do. I was thinking of something a little more viral. Can you imagine how much thought it would provoke if 200 4x4s drove into Murphy, NC (outside of Tellico)? Parking legally and totally silent. Held up signs or something to illustrate the business they were going to lose as well as pictures of families together in their Jeeps enjoying the park. Some research could probably be done on the economic impact on other areas where there had been closures to add to the affect.

 

well I dont the economic impact will be as much of a problem as we all thought.

Take for example, Tellico. Man i thought for sure that was a good selling point on this but after talking with several Tellico veterans and a little research, there isnt much geared to the offroader. There are 2 or 3 hotel/cabins that are made for Tellico visitors, 1 or 2 4x4 shops and thats really about it. Not to mention the full park closure is Jan to March when traffic is the least at Tellico.

Now the protest thing could strike a nerve though... maybe we should explore this further...

Sometimes i think to myself "If i ever see someone acting like an idiot on the trails ill go have my words with him." Then i stop and realize thats dumb to do. You never know who is carrying a gun and the last place i want to be shot is back in the woods or up in the mountains somewhere. Its going to take a group effort of critizing/deleting post not showing the Tread Lightly ways and clubs not allowing people to ride with them who dont display the good skills.

 

I think the problem is that too many in our sport are complete idiots and their distruction is difficult to hide or erase. Likewise, the enviromentalists are exceptionally good at being extremely vocal about their cause and unfortunately, the yahoos do a great job of helping them to make their point. As I said before, perhaps our fight should be redirected to the source of our problems. Believe me, living out here in the left coast, I get to talk to a ton of tree huggers and while many are completely off the deep end, I think you'd be surprised at how many are actually intellegent, thoughtful and reasonable people. The problem is, we've just been so busy blindly fighting each other that nobody has taken the time to see if we actually shared any common ground. Trust me, I have seen it to exist and have been inspired by it.

I completely agree with what you are saying but I honestly do not think there has ever been any real effort made to have a sincere dialogue with even some of these radical groups. And even if no headway can be made with them, this is an issue that has to be made to the American public and so far, the radicals have been making their argument louder and better. And, I think we have the capacity to be just as loud, if not louder and I think we have a better argument if we direct our efforts with the enviromentalists and against the same enemy.

Well, I'm sure there are a lot that don't give a rats ass but unfortunately, I'm sure the same could be said about people on our side of the fence as well but in the opposing point of view.

Unfortuantely, I don't think most hard core enviromentalists give a hoot about economic impacts and doubt that it'll have any effect other than to win the sympathy of people on our side of the fence. Again, it is in my opinion that if we really want to retain the right to enjoy our public lands on a long term basis, we will have to find a way to find common ground with the enviromentalists and work with them to make it happen. Believe me, I'm not suggesting that it would be easy to do but so far as I know, it has never been tried.

Me, grasping as straws and looking for answers,
WOL

 

That is essentially the crux of the problem. You're not dealing with individual environmentalists. You're dealing with the organization. The majority of environmentalists just throw money at the organization and the machine starts moving. Politicians feed the machine and it storms even faster.

I like what you have to say on this. It just sounds awfully close to the "we need to educate" tactic. While education is imperative I don't think it's an action of itself. We have to minimalize the effect of the environmentalists in order to win here. Certainly, removing the idiots from the trail by itself will help. But, the education would help if we were at the top of the food chain. Right now we're not economically, politically, or in population.

I agree and in part is what I'm saying. Our voice is not heard. Maybe some of the moderate environmentalists would back away if they knew where their wacky leaders were leading them.


My point is the to the groups and not the individuals. I think we could make our case to the more moderate environmentalists.

I think that would be a good thing. Rallying and organizing those on our side of the fence is the critical thing we're missing. Sure we have a few organizations dedicated to responsible land use and that are somewhat looking out for us. But, in my opinion they don't seem to be well organized or funded which may be because their message is not clear.

Additionally, something like that might have the affect of bringing more people to our side and may also get us some local and perhaps national attention. It's all about bringing those symphathetic to our cause to arms.

Granted -- not only do we need to, we should. That being said you have to be a force to be reckoned with in order to be heard. They have no incentive to sit down with us and negotiate, because we currently have very little power.

 

Well, I don't know if I agree with that statement. We have the automotive and other motorsport corporations as well as the aftermarket industry that depend on our ability to buy and use their products. Likewise, we clearly have the numbers to support those industries and together, I think we have been able to keep a lot of what the enviromentalist want to do at bay or at least for now anyway. The problem in my opinion is that they currently have a better argument than us and one that reaches out to the emotional center of people who could care less about our sport or playing in the outdoors in general. What these people here is that rivers and streams are being polluted, cute fury animals are being killed and trees are being destroyed by drunken, shotgun totting hillbillies in off-road vehicles. I guess when I say that we need to find a way to find common ground with the enviromentalist, I really mean we need to emphasize where we see eye to eye and show the people what we are doing to protect streams, cute furry critters and trees. Essentially, steal their argument from them, make it ours and show how we do things better. In truth, I'd rather not negotiate when I can inspire others follow my lead.

 

back to the Tread Lightly thing here and being smart while offroad...

It doesnt help when a trail is temp. closed that some just drive their rig over the thing used to block the trails (rocks, mound of dirt or gravel) and they just continue on their way. This makes us all looks REALLY bad when we cant even obey simple trail closures.

I agree the public has a stereotype for us and its exactly that, drunken, gun carrying hillbillys who could care less about a stream or tree and we are just out to have fun, run over things and throw our trash wherever and just not care.

 

Wheelin' is becoming one of last unclaimed freedoms allowed in the United States, in my opinion. The Government basically wants whats best for the majority of the citizens, not taking into thought how pastionate off-roaders, such as ourselves, may feel. I'm one of those people that if I see a piece of trash lying on the ground, or I see someone throw trash on the ground, i'll pick it up and confront the person who did so. I'm not the typical tree-hugger or environmentalists who is anal about everything that is done wrong on and off the trials. But after a little thought, you realize that Way Of Life is very true about saying that Jeepers share mutual beliefs with some categories of environmentalists.

Both of us care about the wild and nature just as much as we love to be out in it. Nothings better than going out on those 3-day weekend trips with your friends and having the time of our lives. I'll do whatever I have to to make sure that that tradition will last for my lifetime and longer.

No one may know what i'm talking about but, I saw some pictures on one of the forums one time of a group of guys and their families out on a trip through a burnt down forest somewhere out West. When i saw that picture I got that shivering feeling that people get when they see/hear something that seems special or horrible to them. (Like hearing a great song or seeing a burnt down forest). This thought came to mind when I saw that picture. What if Jeepers get blamed for starting the horrendous fires? Could this be the reason for the changes?

That's just what I think, thanks for listening,

Scott

 

Man, all of these posts are sadly true. Here in northern California up by the rubicon trail we are having the same problem. I am in my early 20's and am fairly new to the off-road world, all i want to do is enjoy the scenary but it is hard to do when there are no trails to go on. One thing that made my heart sink was when my dad and i were off-roading and we were looking for some trails on a map when a park ranger stopped by to see how we were doing. We asked if there were any good trails that were around the area, and she replied "off-roading is becoming a thing of the past" man i hate to hear that. Environmentalists have been trying to close the rubicon trail for some time, and eventually they may when because of all the stupid asses that ruin the trails. I am not trying to be a tree hugger, but the least people could do is respect the trails so we can continue to go on them!!

 

Agreed - As far as stereotypes go, they can only exist if there is an element of truth to it.

Was it one of these maybe...







Fortunately, burns like these are quite common out in SoCal and while a lot are caused by carelessness and arsonists, a lot of them are caused by things like lightning as well. Fortunately, off-roaders don't typically get blamed for the burns but they are often the cause of needless trail errosion and for cutting new paths where brush/trees would have prevented it in the past. Fortunately, we have a lot of good clubs out here that do wonders to help clean up and rehabilitate these areas.