Jeepers Responsibility To Tread Lightly
JK Enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
From: Alpharetta, Georgia
Thanks for clarifying that Way Of Life. Not very many forest fires occur over here on the east coast so that's a new sight for me.
All in all, that looked like a pretty decent trip. Nice pics, sad but pretty back-drop.
Scott
All in all, that looked like a pretty decent trip. Nice pics, sad but pretty back-drop.
Scott
JK Enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 291
Likes: 0
From: Seattle, WA
I consider myself an environmentalist because I love Nature and the outdoors. I love Jeeping because it gets me, my family, and friends outdoors. I agree with the "tread lightly" concept, but I feel some take it too far and are hypocritcal about it. What is treaded lightly to one, may not be to another person. It depends on how far you want to take it. I will admit that I do not usually have a problem running over a cresote bush or deviating from a marked trail when out in the middle of nowhere. Someone else may frown upon that, and someone else may think that we shouldnt be allowed to drive off the the pavement at all! My point is-- to what degree are you willing to take it? And you have to remember that not everyone will agree with that degree.
I see ALOT of hypocrisy when it comes environmental issues and closures. This is how my brain works-
Why is it that if a Jeep runs over a bush everybody gets all up in arms, but a developer can bulldozer miles of land and build 5000 tract homes?
Why is it that if our government and others (treehuggers) are so concerned about our resources I can go buy a huge truck that gets 6-7 miles to the gallon? (or a JK that gets 15mpg if you want to take it farther) (I think we should all be driving miniMogs at 50mpg!
)
Whats the difference between driving through a stream at Coyote cyn, or Holcomb crk or any other marked trail, and across one that is not marked? Are those stream crossings better for the environment? No- they are the same.
What does splashing through a mudhole in Trabuco cyn, or Alabama, or a riverbed, or most anywhere, hurt???
How can you hurt a rock or dirt or sand???
Why is a jeep track unacceptable, but footprints are ok? Given, it takes many footprints to equal a Jeep track, but my point is why is one OK, and the other is a big no-no?
Who decides what is closed and what stays open, and why? Sometimes, I cannot figure out WHY a certain trail is closed. And apparently the forest service doesnt know WHY either. When I asked, the answer I got was "to keep people out". No shit! But they couldnt tell me why they want to keep people out. I'm all for a trail closure if there is a good reason for it.
Why is the Rubicon trail closed for winter? Also 3n93, 2n10 and several others, while some are left open?
Why is cutting down a tree illegal, but if you get a permit and pay a fee its OK?
My questions are somewhat rhetorical-----more to point out the hypocrisy than to get actual answers from the forum members.
Yeah, sometimes I piss and moan about closures and rules and such. But that is because sometimes I feel like my freedoms are being taken away.
I, in general, vote against any new tax, or fee, or anything else that will give our government more money to waste. I have a word for our government when it comes to fees and closures--- "insatiable"--- meaning that no matter how much we give up, they will want more, and more, and more. I think its naive to believe that we can "work with" the radicals. I agree with WOL in that we may have some common ground with the moderates.
Please do not get me wrong- I love this country, and pay my share of taxes. But I cant agree with wasting money and resources. I believe the only efficient dept is the IRS!!!
One of my big pet peaves is trash!!! I think all those Rangers ought to be giving littering tickets to anyone who litters. I will also confront anybody or any group that does not pack it out. We had an incident at Dumont Dunes recently where a group of about 10 guys in 4 trucks left all their trash in a total mess when they left. I yelled at them to come pick up their trash, but they just flipped me off and kept going. I jumped in the JK and blocked them from getting out. The rangers came and handed out tickets and made them clean it all up! It took them about an hour while we all watched.
So, in conclusion, if you get your panties in a bunch over a bush getting trampled, or mosquitoes getting killed from a Jeep driving through a mudhole, please dont come Jeeping with me.
BTW- I am not going to get into a pissing match with anybody- just wanted to put my thoughts out there.
Thanks Eddie for having a place that we can discuss, or comment on these important issues!
I see ALOT of hypocrisy when it comes environmental issues and closures. This is how my brain works-
Why is it that if a Jeep runs over a bush everybody gets all up in arms, but a developer can bulldozer miles of land and build 5000 tract homes?
Why is it that if our government and others (treehuggers) are so concerned about our resources I can go buy a huge truck that gets 6-7 miles to the gallon? (or a JK that gets 15mpg if you want to take it farther) (I think we should all be driving miniMogs at 50mpg!
)Whats the difference between driving through a stream at Coyote cyn, or Holcomb crk or any other marked trail, and across one that is not marked? Are those stream crossings better for the environment? No- they are the same.
What does splashing through a mudhole in Trabuco cyn, or Alabama, or a riverbed, or most anywhere, hurt???
How can you hurt a rock or dirt or sand???
Why is a jeep track unacceptable, but footprints are ok? Given, it takes many footprints to equal a Jeep track, but my point is why is one OK, and the other is a big no-no?
Who decides what is closed and what stays open, and why? Sometimes, I cannot figure out WHY a certain trail is closed. And apparently the forest service doesnt know WHY either. When I asked, the answer I got was "to keep people out". No shit! But they couldnt tell me why they want to keep people out. I'm all for a trail closure if there is a good reason for it.
Why is the Rubicon trail closed for winter? Also 3n93, 2n10 and several others, while some are left open?
Why is cutting down a tree illegal, but if you get a permit and pay a fee its OK?
My questions are somewhat rhetorical-----more to point out the hypocrisy than to get actual answers from the forum members.
Yeah, sometimes I piss and moan about closures and rules and such. But that is because sometimes I feel like my freedoms are being taken away.
I, in general, vote against any new tax, or fee, or anything else that will give our government more money to waste. I have a word for our government when it comes to fees and closures--- "insatiable"--- meaning that no matter how much we give up, they will want more, and more, and more. I think its naive to believe that we can "work with" the radicals. I agree with WOL in that we may have some common ground with the moderates.
Please do not get me wrong- I love this country, and pay my share of taxes. But I cant agree with wasting money and resources. I believe the only efficient dept is the IRS!!!
One of my big pet peaves is trash!!! I think all those Rangers ought to be giving littering tickets to anyone who litters. I will also confront anybody or any group that does not pack it out. We had an incident at Dumont Dunes recently where a group of about 10 guys in 4 trucks left all their trash in a total mess when they left. I yelled at them to come pick up their trash, but they just flipped me off and kept going. I jumped in the JK and blocked them from getting out. The rangers came and handed out tickets and made them clean it all up! It took them about an hour while we all watched.
So, in conclusion, if you get your panties in a bunch over a bush getting trampled, or mosquitoes getting killed from a Jeep driving through a mudhole, please dont come Jeeping with me.
BTW- I am not going to get into a pissing match with anybody- just wanted to put my thoughts out there.
Thanks Eddie for having a place that we can discuss, or comment on these important issues!
JK Enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 168
Likes: 0
X2 what 100dollarman said- Trash is a pitiful way to ruin a trail.
Last summer I went with a mixed crew (Landies, Toyoyo but mostly Jeeps) along the Peterson trail in Haliburton.
Somebody tossed a cigarette butt out his window into the forest. Needless to say we all stopped to allow him to get out and retrieve it. Yes we all made him feel bad but it had to be done.
I don't mind people enjoying cigarettes, candies,chocolate bars ....anything so long as it doesn't affect me enjoying the outdoors....sans other people's garbage!
Last summer I went with a mixed crew (Landies, Toyoyo but mostly Jeeps) along the Peterson trail in Haliburton.
Somebody tossed a cigarette butt out his window into the forest. Needless to say we all stopped to allow him to get out and retrieve it. Yes we all made him feel bad but it had to be done.
I don't mind people enjoying cigarettes, candies,chocolate bars ....anything so long as it doesn't affect me enjoying the outdoors....sans other people's garbage!
JK-Forum Founder
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 36,534
Likes: 16
From: Laguna Niguel, CA
What is treaded lightly to one, may not be to another person. It depends on how far you want to take it. I will admit that I do not usually have a problem running over a cresote bush or deviating from a marked trail when out in the middle of nowhere. Someone else may frown upon that, and someone else may think that we shouldnt be allowed to drive off the the pavement at all! My point is-- to what degree are you willing to take it? And you have to remember that not everyone will agree with that degree.
Why is it that if a Jeep runs over a bush everybody gets all up in arms, but a developer can bulldozer miles of land and build 5000 tract homes?
Why is it that if our government and others (treehuggers) are so concerned about our resources I can go buy a huge truck that gets 6-7 miles to the gallon? (or a JK that gets 15mpg if you want to take it farther) (I think we should all be driving miniMogs at 50mpg! )
)
Whats the difference between driving through a stream at Coyote cyn, or Holcomb crk or any other marked trail, and across one that is not marked? Are those stream crossings better for the environment? No- they are the same.
What does splashing through a mudhole in Trabuco cyn, or Alabama, or a riverbed, or most anywhere, hurt???
How can you hurt a rock or dirt or sand???
Why is a jeep track unacceptable, but footprints are ok? Given, it takes many footprints to equal a Jeep track, but my point is why is one OK, and the other is a big no-no?
Who decides what is closed and what stays open, and why? Sometimes, I cannot figure out WHY a certain trail is closed. And apparently the forest service doesnt know WHY either. When I asked, the answer I got was "to keep people out". No shit! But they couldnt tell me why they want to keep people out. I'm all for a trail closure if there is a good reason for it.
Why is the Rubicon trail closed for winter? Also 3n93, 2n10 and several others, while some are left open?
Why is cutting down a tree illegal, but if you get a permit and pay a fee its OK?
Yeah, sometimes I piss and moan about closures and rules and such. But that is because sometimes I feel like my freedoms are being taken away.
I, in general, vote against any new tax, or fee, or anything else that will give our government more money to waste. I have a word for our government when it comes to fees and closures--- "insatiable"--- meaning that no matter how much we give up, they will want more, and more, and more. I think its naive to believe that we can "work with" the radicals. I agree with WOL in that we may have some common ground with the moderates.
One of my big pet peaves is trash!!! I think all those Rangers ought to be giving littering tickets to anyone who litters. I will also confront anybody or any group that does not pack it out. We had an incident at Dumont Dunes recently where a group of about 10 guys in 4 trucks left all their trash in a total mess when they left. I yelled at them to come pick up their trash, but they just flipped me off and kept going. I jumped in the JK and blocked them from getting out. The rangers came and handed out tickets and made them clean it all up! It took them about an hour while we all watched.
So, in conclusion, if you get your panties in a bunch over a bush getting trampled, or mosquitoes getting killed from a Jeep driving through a mudhole, please dont come Jeeping with me.
Thanks Eddie for having a place that we can discuss, or comment on these important issues!
JK Enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 291
Likes: 0
From: Seattle, WA
I love my country and the people in it, and I get damn close to a tear in my eye when I read the Declaration of Independence, or the Constitution, or anything Lincoln ever said. But the government we have now bears little resemblance to any of that. And it's heading in the direction of Orwell's boot stomping on a human face, forever.
(And no, this is not directed at any particular politician or political party. Capital-G Government is beyond any of them and has a life of its own.)
Anyway, not to make this too political. I'm done now.
Thread Starter
JK Newbie
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
From: Missoula, MT
Glad to see my thread actually went somewhere. Even more pleased to see that for the most part, the forum seems to be on the same page.
I am a little dissapointed with 100dollarmans comments. Laws are laws and are such until they are changed. By saying why cross here when you can cross down stream, or don't run over that bush, but you can run over that one out in the middle of nowhere, you are defying the law. You are breaking the very ground for which this thread was posted.
Thats like saying if you know your 16 year old drinks, why not just go out and buy them their booze. Becuase its against the law.
Are you breaking the law if no one is looking? Hell yeah.
And if you track up that hill, rock, tree, or you track across that illegal stream cross you just laid the tracks for the person that comes up sometime behind you.
Given your response, I believe your degree of tread lightly is more like how close can I break the law without getting caught. Remind me not to jeep with you.
I too am not trying to start a pissing match, just want to be clear where I stand, and that I am pleased that most Jeepers degree of tread lightly is very similar.
I am a little dissapointed with 100dollarmans comments. Laws are laws and are such until they are changed. By saying why cross here when you can cross down stream, or don't run over that bush, but you can run over that one out in the middle of nowhere, you are defying the law. You are breaking the very ground for which this thread was posted.
Thats like saying if you know your 16 year old drinks, why not just go out and buy them their booze. Becuase its against the law.
Are you breaking the law if no one is looking? Hell yeah.
And if you track up that hill, rock, tree, or you track across that illegal stream cross you just laid the tracks for the person that comes up sometime behind you.
Given your response, I believe your degree of tread lightly is more like how close can I break the law without getting caught. Remind me not to jeep with you.
I too am not trying to start a pissing match, just want to be clear where I stand, and that I am pleased that most Jeepers degree of tread lightly is very similar.
JK Jedi
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,831
Likes: 2
From: SoCal, USA
Okay-- I'm late to the ballgame, but I'm gonna chime in anyways. There is absolutely no reason why we shouldn't do our best to tread lightly and leave no trace. I can't tell you how much broken glass, toilet paper, and random crap I see/pickup on the trail. You've got to get pretty far out in order to escape the evidence left behind by people who just don't care. And it isn't just trash that's the problem. Putting your tires someplace they shouldn't be is like posting up a sign for everyone else that says "go here". The rangers in Anza-Borrego state park carry rakes with them to hide the tire marks of people who treaded where they shouldn't have-- we had one tell us that if they miss a set of tire marks that go off the trail and don't rake them up, it's a road within a few days... and the sad part is, that isn't hard for me to believe. Rangers work hard to keep our trails open and looking good and when a select few make their jobs more difficult, it can contribute to the possibility of trail closure. If we want to prevent this, we have to do our best to only go where we are permitted (whether by foot or by Jeep) and to try to leave the outdoors exactly as we found it-- but cleaner. And this isn't just about laws, rules and regulations, it's about us-- the folks who want to enjoy a clean and preserved backcountry. I enjoy the outdoors for its natural beauty and I feel like if I can enjoy it looking the way it does, then the person who visits after me should be entitled to the same respect.
And this isn't just about laws, rules and regulations, it's about us-- the folks who want to enjoy a clean and preserved backcountry. I enjoy the outdoors for its natural beauty and I feel like if I can enjoy it looking the way it does, then the person who visits after me should be entitled to the same respect.
JK-Forum Founder
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 36,534
Likes: 16
From: Laguna Niguel, CA
I DO NOT CONDONE ANYTHING ILLEGAL!!! I actually consider myself a pretty responsible Jeeper. But, I am not a Saint, either. If you want to get technical, I would call you a hypocrit everytime you drove over the speed limit. But I would never call you names
If you or WOL can say that you never ran over a bush, or never went over the speed limit I would be very surprised. I realize that we are not talking about speed limits, but you guys brought up the laws....I am just pointing out the hypocrisy.
If you or WOL can say that you never ran over a bush, or never went over the speed limit I would be very surprised. I realize that we are not talking about speed limits, but you guys brought up the laws....I am just pointing out the hypocrisy.
I am disappointed that you are disappointed in me. I am just keeping it REAL.
I think we all agree that our wilderness is something that we should take care of and conserve. I was only pointing out how different people take it to different degrees. I dont want you to think I am just out tearing up the desert and the forest all willy nilly, because that is not the case.
I would hope that even having this discussion will make more people think about our environment and how best to use and conserve it.
JK Newbie
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
From: North Arlington, NJ
That's a very simple answer. Nowhere is it "OK", however, space has been made available to you to legally tread even though it is NOT environmentally OK.
If you want to break it down to what is or isnt environmentally OK to Jeep or even walk on, well... the answer is nowhere. The only environmentally OK option is to block all access and let nature run its course.
Being that we live in America, you have rights just as everyone else. For as many "environmentalists" that the laws are siding with to preserve "nature", there are also laws that protect YOUR rights and interests/hobbies. Some people enjoy "offroading" and other "OHV" acitivities. All of these activities are "bad" for the environment, however, there are places/trails which are legally set aside for you to participate in your hobby even though it may not be in everyone's best interest.
JK-Forum Founder
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 36,534
Likes: 16
From: Laguna Niguel, CA
WOL-
I never said I want to cross streams at an illegal place or climb a rock that is off the trail (Which I am pretty sure that guys like you have done, also). I was TRYING to say- Why is crossing here is Evironmentally OK, and over HERE is not. I am just trying to figure out the logic. Thats all!
I never said I want to cross streams at an illegal place or climb a rock that is off the trail (Which I am pretty sure that guys like you have done, also). I was TRYING to say- Why is crossing here is Evironmentally OK, and over HERE is not. I am just trying to figure out the logic. Thats all!
I compare running over a bush once in a while to going over the speed limit once in a while--- I dont condone either, and I try not to do either as much as possible. But I am just saying that I have done both on occasion.
I was ONLY pointing out the HYPOCRISY!!! I see that you are not getting my point. So be it. I just dont think its fair to break the law and then tell me THE LAW IS THE LAW! Of course anyone knows that there are consequences to any action.
I think we are all on the same side here- Like I said, I LOVE the outdoors and I DONT go out and tear it up all willy nilly.
As far as a conservation plan- obviously I dont have a full on comprehensive national plan ready for you- but in general I believe we should conserve and take care of our wilderness and also make sure we have use of it as well as future generations to come.
And I am all FOR a closure as long as there is a good logical reason other than something political. I think we all need to do our part.
Thanks for Listening! And for giving us a place to discuss this important issue!