4.5" AEV and DW after a year.
08-13-2012, 03:02 PM
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4.5" AEV and DW after a year.
Hi Guys,
First post, need some help. I'll try and be as thoroughly detailed as possible to help diagnose. I have an 09' Rubicon Unlimited, 26K miles, running the AEV 4.5" lift with the Bilstein's, self-installed just over a year ago. It's been largely trouble free for most of a year, though I always got a hint of a DW at high speed pothole hits but it always damped out. Not so now. I have the LCA drop brackets, not the cam bolts, and the UCA's are installed in the proper rear/lower hole for proper caster correction. My handy dandy iPhone protractor laid on the front pinion flange shows 6.5 deg, and laid on the lower part of the knuckle casting flats it shows 4.5 degrees both sides, which seems to jive. I have checked and rechecked, loosened and re-torqued all the relevant bolts in the system to 125 ft/lbs as well as the relo-bracket for track bar. I have the stock 32 BFG's on stock wheels. I've been through Planman's detailed DW diagnosis top to bottom and can NOT find the problem. Trackbar bushings are in nice shape, bracket holes at frame and axle are not wallowed out, and I replaced the bolks with the KOR 9/16 kit. Bracket welds are intact. The whole system appears tight as a drum, and healthy steering wheel inputs side to side reveal NO slop/clunks/play etc in any drag link ends, track-bar ends, ball joints, carrier bearings, upper and lower control arms, AEV Bilstein steering stabilizer was pulled and checked for proper damping and it's fine, sector shaft etc. There just ISN'T any play anywhere. Stock tires were just rebalanced, with me standing there watching and they are spot on balanced. Yet at virtually any speed, any sort of pothole type bump is now guaranteed to induce a massive Death Wobble. I slam on the brakes to get it stopped quickly before damaging components. I have now purchased a set of the giant TeraFlex adjustable LCA's as well as the TeraFlex adjustable track bar as well. Have a call into the deal for a check against the 19-002-12 TSB before installing but I'm reasonably confident they'll find nothing amiss. I consider myself a fairly decent wrench, but I am really at the end of my rope here. Any additional help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated! My Rubicon is white if that helps diagnose.
Cheers
Mikey
First post, need some help. I'll try and be as thoroughly detailed as possible to help diagnose. I have an 09' Rubicon Unlimited, 26K miles, running the AEV 4.5" lift with the Bilstein's, self-installed just over a year ago. It's been largely trouble free for most of a year, though I always got a hint of a DW at high speed pothole hits but it always damped out. Not so now. I have the LCA drop brackets, not the cam bolts, and the UCA's are installed in the proper rear/lower hole for proper caster correction. My handy dandy iPhone protractor laid on the front pinion flange shows 6.5 deg, and laid on the lower part of the knuckle casting flats it shows 4.5 degrees both sides, which seems to jive. I have checked and rechecked, loosened and re-torqued all the relevant bolts in the system to 125 ft/lbs as well as the relo-bracket for track bar. I have the stock 32 BFG's on stock wheels. I've been through Planman's detailed DW diagnosis top to bottom and can NOT find the problem. Trackbar bushings are in nice shape, bracket holes at frame and axle are not wallowed out, and I replaced the bolks with the KOR 9/16 kit. Bracket welds are intact. The whole system appears tight as a drum, and healthy steering wheel inputs side to side reveal NO slop/clunks/play etc in any drag link ends, track-bar ends, ball joints, carrier bearings, upper and lower control arms, AEV Bilstein steering stabilizer was pulled and checked for proper damping and it's fine, sector shaft etc. There just ISN'T any play anywhere. Stock tires were just rebalanced, with me standing there watching and they are spot on balanced. Yet at virtually any speed, any sort of pothole type bump is now guaranteed to induce a massive Death Wobble. I slam on the brakes to get it stopped quickly before damaging components. I have now purchased a set of the giant TeraFlex adjustable LCA's as well as the TeraFlex adjustable track bar as well. Have a call into the deal for a check against the 19-002-12 TSB before installing but I'm reasonably confident they'll find nothing amiss. I consider myself a fairly decent wrench, but I am really at the end of my rope here. Any additional help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated! My Rubicon is white if that helps diagnose.
Cheers
Mikey
08-13-2012, 07:56 PM
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Very interested........I boiught a AEV 4.5 last week ,Ishould receive it in 2-3 weeks......So If someone have something to say for helping futur problem or help me to do the best instalation ,it will be very very appreciated...
08-13-2012, 11:10 PM
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Hi PlanMan,
First off thanks for replying, had hoped you would. Your threads and videos have really helped. Lemme answer each point below.
Nope, removed arms and checked each and every bushing, at 26K miles I figured they would be in good shape and they were. All 8 of them, upper and lower, frame end and axle ends.
Nope, watched the videos (again thanks), and got on each ball joint gently with a pry bar and thus far, there is no detectable movement. Laying a level on them per the video, I got nothing.
Nope, also removed track bar and checked both bushings, (fine), check bolt holes on both brackets, (not wallowed at all) and replaced the 14mm bolts with 9/16" Grade 8 shouldered bolts with Grade 8 Stover Nuts.
Nope, checked that with some GIANT channel locks, no up/down play.
Nope, as part of the entire exercise, I loosened all 8 control arm points, the track bar, etc. With the Jeep flat and level, we rocked and rolled, jumped up and down on the bumper, really moved things around with everything loose to allow the bushings to settle to a neutral spot, then torqued everything back up to 125 ft lbs with the Snap On Torq-o-Meter. They are TIGHT to spec, and not in a pre-loaded/bound up condition. Again, the entire system seems tight as a drum.
Hmmmmmm....this potentially has merit if you can explain how that would occur. AEV maintains the brackets actually CORRECT the caster lost in a lift as well as placing the control arms back in a "level-with-the-frame" position to properly transmit impacts UP into the spring and shock instead of BACK and UP into the frame as when the arms would be if left in the stock frame attachments. There are two holes for the upper arm frame ends, based on 3.5 or 4.5 lift, the rearmost to be used in the 4.5 to pull the top of the axle case to the rear for more caster. So I'm curious how exactly would they make a DW worse do you think? They are 1/4" plate, no way they are flexing with the arm in there.
Well, during the entire lift process, the Tie Rod was never removed, never even loosened, so Toe settings in theory, can't have changed right? Haven't measured, but I will. However, the Tie Rod brings up another point I wanted to run past you.
According to a write up on the recent DW TSB from Jeep, we've ALL been looking at the wrong areas. So....according to the drawing below associated with the TSB write up, because of the combination of values in caster, King Pin Inclination and Scrub Angle, when hitting bumps it's the TIE ROD flexing?(and thus changing effective length), THAT'S the cause of Death Wobble? All these other items like track bar bolt torques, track bar bracket welds, control arms, loose bolts etc, are just hiding the true cause, insufficient TIE ROD STIFFNESS? Any opinions PlanMan in favor or against this supposed revelation?
Cheers
Mikey
First off thanks for replying, had hoped you would. Your threads and videos have really helped. Lemme answer each point below.
According to a write up on the recent DW TSB from Jeep, we've ALL been looking at the wrong areas. So....according to the drawing below associated with the TSB write up, because of the combination of values in caster, King Pin Inclination and Scrub Angle, when hitting bumps it's the TIE ROD flexing?(and thus changing effective length), THAT'S the cause of Death Wobble? All these other items like track bar bolt torques, track bar bracket welds, control arms, loose bolts etc, are just hiding the true cause, insufficient TIE ROD STIFFNESS? Any opinions PlanMan in favor or against this supposed revelation?
Cheers
Mikey
Last edited by d90rover; 08-13-2012 at 11:27 PM.
08-14-2012, 01:34 PM
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One guy had everything tight, but what he missed was ovaling of the front upper frame side control arm bracket bolt holes. They damaged his Rock Krawler flex joints from the DW.
He will try to weld some washers up in there. If that doesn't work because he can't get up in there, he will drill out the holes and bushings for larger bolts. If that doesn't work, he will upgrade to a long arm.
I believe the reason that the AEV bracket occasionally lends itself to more shimmies is it might move on the brackets and bolts.
You could try removing the brackets to inspect for evidence of movement or ovaling of the holes. Or, you could weld the bracket to the frame and add a couple gussets.
He will try to weld some washers up in there. If that doesn't work because he can't get up in there, he will drill out the holes and bushings for larger bolts. If that doesn't work, he will upgrade to a long arm.
I believe the reason that the AEV bracket occasionally lends itself to more shimmies is it might move on the brackets and bolts.
You could try removing the brackets to inspect for evidence of movement or ovaling of the holes. Or, you could weld the bracket to the frame and add a couple gussets.
Most, but not all, DW starts with improperly torqued bolts or a worn frame side trackbar end. Jeepers have known this since before the 97 TJ--since the mid-80s XJs.
It is very disappointing that the Chrysler TSB doesn't start with bolts, ends, bracket holes, ball joints, unit bearings, etc. and blames it on a flexing tie rod.
It is very disappointing that the Chrysler TSB doesn't start with bolts, ends, bracket holes, ball joints, unit bearings, etc. and blames it on a flexing tie rod.
Cheers
Mikey
08-15-2012, 12:15 PM
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Well I took the Rubi in to the dealer this am for a thorough diagnosis/repair. Took my Service Adviser out for a demo ride, took it up to 55-58 on dead smooth highway and waited. Took about 5 secs for the harmonic to develop, then BAM, DW just about yanking the wheel out of my hand. Scared the tobacco juice out of the poor guy. Anyway, since the truck is an 09', with just 26k miles, it's still under the basic 3/36 warranty. Said they'd call with what they discovered BEFORE actually making any repairs. Fingers crossed.
Mikey
Mikey
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08-16-2012, 01:23 PM
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Here's the report from the dealer, and Planman, you're NOT going to like it. The dealer tech drove the truck, and it dutifully death wobbled on command, scared him good. He proceeded to check torques, then take off and re-torque each suspect area, nothing wrong anywhere, no holes wallowed, no bushings damaged, no bolts loose or mis-torqued. Now the fun part. When this first manifested, I removed the Bilstein 5100 Series Steering stabilizer provided by AEV, and swapped in a TeraFlex 9550 thinking it'd help, and obviously it didn't. Tech removed TeraFlex and put on a stock Jeep Steering Stabilzer and, wait for it.... no more death wobble. No I KNOW the contention is the steering/suspension should in theory be able to run safely with no SS in place at all. We've all been warned to raise a red flag when the dealer inspection says slap in a new SS and see ya. So either the theory is incorrect and the system does indeed need a SS, or there's still something being missed. I've got to wonder a bit at why a supposedly wimpy stock valved SS from Jeep cures the problem that a Bilstein and TeraFlex Uber SS couldn't solve. Ideas from PlanMan? At any rate, I'm picking it up in a bit and will drive it and see if I can get it to repeat.
Cheers
Mikey
Cheers
Mikey
08-16-2012, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by d90rover
Here's the report from the dealer, and Planman, you're NOT going to like it. The dealer tech drove the truck, and it dutifully death wobbled on command, scared him good. He proceeded to check torques, then take off and re-torque each suspect area, nothing wrong anywhere, no holes wallowed, no bushings damaged, no bolts loose or mis-torqued. Now the fun part. When this first manifested, I removed the Bilstein 5100 Series Steering stabilizer provided by AEV, and swapped in a TeraFlex 9550 thinking it'd help, and obviously it didn't. Tech removed TeraFlex and put on a stock Jeep Steering Stabilzer and, wait for it.... no more death wobble. No I KNOW the contention is the steering/suspension should in theory be able to run safely with no SS in place at all. We've all been warned to raise a red flag when the dealer inspection says slap in a new SS and see ya. So either the theory is incorrect and the system does indeed need a SS, or there's still something being missed. I've got to wonder a bit at why a supposedly wimpy stock valved SS from Jeep cures the problem that a Bilstein and TeraFlex Uber SS couldn't solve. Ideas from PlanMan? At any rate, I'm picking it up in a bit and will drive it and see if I can get it to repeat.
Cheers
Mikey
Cheers
Mikey
08-16-2012, 06:24 PM
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UPDATE, it no workie!
I was waiting for that. Very predictable.
No. If the other steering stabilizers were properly installed and new, there should be no real material difference between running them or the stock one.
The first thing I tell people to do--after checking tire psi and rotating tires to see of the wobble moves--is to remove the steering stabilizer.
The only thing that would explain your situation is if either the tech didn't remove the steering stabilizer to do the diagnosis and it was masking other problems, or that the steering stabilizer was damaged, or that it was installed incorrectly.
There are hundreds of people who experienced DW, went to the dealer, got a new steering stabilizer, and eventually, the new stabilizer failed prematurely and the damage became worse.
Unless your problem was improper installation--which I doubt--the "fix" will be temporary.
No. If the other steering stabilizers were properly installed and new, there should be no real material difference between running them or the stock one.
The first thing I tell people to do--after checking tire psi and rotating tires to see of the wobble moves--is to remove the steering stabilizer.
The only thing that would explain your situation is if either the tech didn't remove the steering stabilizer to do the diagnosis and it was masking other problems, or that the steering stabilizer was damaged, or that it was installed incorrectly.
There are hundreds of people who experienced DW, went to the dealer, got a new steering stabilizer, and eventually, the new stabilizer failed prematurely and the damage became worse.
Unless your problem was improper installation--which I doubt--the "fix" will be temporary.
I'm bringing in the text of your step by step instructions and we'll see where we get.
So the ole slap on a new SS schtick had the predictable result.
Cheers
Mikey