Anybody put on new headers?
JK Jedi
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 7,215
Likes: 10
From: Georgia
I'm not going to school you about OBDII when it's clear all you want to do is argue. Go read up on it. Go get thirty years experience workin on it and get back to me.
Why would a check engine light come on?
Could it be because the ECM doesn't make immediate adjustments to A/F ratios?
When drag racing, I have immediate control over A/F ratios. Make a run, pull the plugs, advance or retard timing or perhaps change the jets and it immediately happens. With the JK I make some changes, perhaps the check engine light comes on, then the JK will often sputter and choke until it figures it out. The best way I have found to clear out the ECM is to trick f it into believing I drove it like a funny car with multiple near WOT freeway on ramp entrances and then a week for it to get it's mind back around how I really drive. Those aren't instantaneous A/F ratio changes and quite different than what we have with those trusty old carburetor engines lacking computer controlled ECMs of years gone by.
The Chrysler ECM is a pretty difficult beast to tame and has inadequate sensors delivering the data. There isn't a MAF sensor nor wideband O2 sensor. Changes are made based on expected results and without data that tells the whole story of aftermarket parts added on. For instance, the AIT sensor does absolutely nothing to address the volume or density of air through the intake. It simply sends the air temperature data without any consideration of volume. Bolt on a CAI that increases air volume and slightly more density and it doesn't have a clue as to what's going on. Add a programmer from someone who doesn't have the Chrysler ECM really nailed down and you have even bigger issues.
Anyway, I've screwed around more than enough with my JK and can without hesitation say that the hurdle to overcome is dealing with the ECM and the loop of the stock sensors. I'd love to be able to get a MAF sensor and a wideband O2 sensor working in conjunction with a programmer that really understood the Chrysler ECM. If it were easy, perhaps Hypertech would have figured it out and I wouldn't have lean conditions when running with their recommended octane settings at a given performance tune and likewise they wouldn't suggest that an intake/headers/exhaust upgrade is beyond what their programmer can handle.
Could it be because the ECM doesn't make immediate adjustments to A/F ratios?
When drag racing, I have immediate control over A/F ratios. Make a run, pull the plugs, advance or retard timing or perhaps change the jets and it immediately happens. With the JK I make some changes, perhaps the check engine light comes on, then the JK will often sputter and choke until it figures it out. The best way I have found to clear out the ECM is to trick f it into believing I drove it like a funny car with multiple near WOT freeway on ramp entrances and then a week for it to get it's mind back around how I really drive. Those aren't instantaneous A/F ratio changes and quite different than what we have with those trusty old carburetor engines lacking computer controlled ECMs of years gone by.
The Chrysler ECM is a pretty difficult beast to tame and has inadequate sensors delivering the data. There isn't a MAF sensor nor wideband O2 sensor. Changes are made based on expected results and without data that tells the whole story of aftermarket parts added on. For instance, the AIT sensor does absolutely nothing to address the volume or density of air through the intake. It simply sends the air temperature data without any consideration of volume. Bolt on a CAI that increases air volume and slightly more density and it doesn't have a clue as to what's going on. Add a programmer from someone who doesn't have the Chrysler ECM really nailed down and you have even bigger issues.
Anyway, I've screwed around more than enough with my JK and can without hesitation say that the hurdle to overcome is dealing with the ECM and the loop of the stock sensors. I'd love to be able to get a MAF sensor and a wideband O2 sensor working in conjunction with a programmer that really understood the Chrysler ECM. If it were easy, perhaps Hypertech would have figured it out and I wouldn't have lean conditions when running with their recommended octane settings at a given performance tune and likewise they wouldn't suggest that an intake/headers/exhaust upgrade is beyond what their programmer can handle.
JK Junkie
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 3,017
Likes: 0
From: Lakewood, OH
The same rules apply as they did 30 or even 40 years ago. More air in and proper exhaust sizing and flow and these vehicles will make more power. The one thing that stays in the way is the ECM and how it reads the data from a collection of inadequate sensors and the action it takes. I'm not savvy enough to change that and I need to rely on the tuner manufacturers who do. To date I haven't got my hands on a good one for the JK and guys with plenty of experience at Hypertech can't put together a one size fits all programmer that functions properly with simple upgrades such as more unforced air in and smoother exhaust out.
I have no want to argue with you and you should take some of that 30 years of experience, twist a wrench and tweak the ECM so you can share it with the rest of us. That way you can provide us all with the knowledge to squeeze some additional power out of the JK, but it will need to be more than a drop in air filter. For starters how about a little write up on replacing an AIT sensor with a MAF sensor and the O2 sensors with a wide band O2 sensor. That would be really useful stuff and much better than the chest pumping.
JK Super Freak
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,533
Likes: 0
From: Oxnard, CA
Internally they can do it how they want even using limited sensors which JP had brought up.
JK Jedi
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 7,215
Likes: 10
From: Georgia
I'm not a 20 or for that matter even a 30 year old kid. I've fought in 3 world wars the Korean and Vietnam conflicts and eat OBDIIs for breakfast. I own a 9 second race car, a 500+ hp street car and two modern day Chrysler products that I routinely bolt stuff on. I will tell you and tell you emphatically that the ECM on these vehicle will not keep up with seemingly simple bolt on intake and exhaust upgrades without the use of a strong programmer.
The same rules apply as they did 30 or even 40 years ago. More air in and proper exhaust sizing and flow and these vehicles will make more power. The one thing that stays in the way is the ECM and how it reads the data from a collection of inadequate sensors and the action it takes. I'm not savvy enough to change that and I need to rely on the tuner manufacturers who do. To date I haven't got my hands on a good one for the JK and guys with plenty of experience at Hypertech can't put together a one size fits all programmer that functions properly with simple upgrades such as more unforced air in and smoother exhaust out.
I have no want to argue with you and you should take some of that 30 years of experience, twist a wrench and tweak the ECM so you can share it with the rest of us. That way you can provide us all with the knowledge to squeeze some additional power out of the JK, but it will need to be more than a drop in air filter. For starters how about a little write up on replacing an AIT sensor with a MAF sensor and the O2 sensors with a wide band O2 sensor. That would be really useful stuff and much better than the chest pumping.
The same rules apply as they did 30 or even 40 years ago. More air in and proper exhaust sizing and flow and these vehicles will make more power. The one thing that stays in the way is the ECM and how it reads the data from a collection of inadequate sensors and the action it takes. I'm not savvy enough to change that and I need to rely on the tuner manufacturers who do. To date I haven't got my hands on a good one for the JK and guys with plenty of experience at Hypertech can't put together a one size fits all programmer that functions properly with simple upgrades such as more unforced air in and smoother exhaust out.
I have no want to argue with you and you should take some of that 30 years of experience, twist a wrench and tweak the ECM so you can share it with the rest of us. That way you can provide us all with the knowledge to squeeze some additional power out of the JK, but it will need to be more than a drop in air filter. For starters how about a little write up on replacing an AIT sensor with a MAF sensor and the O2 sensors with a wide band O2 sensor. That would be really useful stuff and much better than the chest pumping.
Whose chest pumping? I was merely pointint out that ....oh nevermind. Jeez. You sound like the one with the problem. Thanks for your service, by the way.
JK Super Freak
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,533
Likes: 0
From: Oxnard, CA
JPOP, been reading up on that Black Sating coating you brought up in your post. After reviewing the articles on it I would have to conclude that even with a just a coating on any header, stock or aftermarket, that it would help improve the flow perhaps making it necessary for a CAI system of some type.
A colder engine compartment would actually allow the intake to breathe cooler air and reduce a lot of heat related wear and tear.
One place said it can be applied at home without baking. seems to run around 25 bucks for 4 to six ounces. I will be checking further into this product.
Thanks for the heads up!
A colder engine compartment would actually allow the intake to breathe cooler air and reduce a lot of heat related wear and tear.
One place said it can be applied at home without baking. seems to run around 25 bucks for 4 to six ounces. I will be checking further into this product.
Thanks for the heads up!
JK Junkie
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 3,017
Likes: 0
From: Lakewood, OH
Yeah it's good stuff and I had taken the headers from my Chevelle to get coated with Cermachrome a few years back just because my feet were cooking. The guys at the powder coat shop brought the stuff to my attention and I wasn't aware of the performance advantages until they sent me an article. Couldn't be happier with the stuff and get hood up performance with cool feet.
As far as doing it at home, I thought it needed to cure at 750 degrees to make a good bond, but I really don't know. Probably how they justify the rate of getting it done and the wife doesn't like when I bake car parts in the oven. The last go around with that was boiling a harmonic balancer on the stove and you would have thought I ran over the cat or forgot her birthday.
As far as doing it at home, I thought it needed to cure at 750 degrees to make a good bond, but I really don't know. Probably how they justify the rate of getting it done and the wife doesn't like when I bake car parts in the oven. The last go around with that was boiling a harmonic balancer on the stove and you would have thought I ran over the cat or forgot her birthday.
JK Super Freak
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,533
Likes: 0
From: Oxnard, CA
Yeah it's good stuff and I had taken the headers from my Chevelle to get coated with Cermachrome a few years back just because my feet were cooking. The guys at the powder coat shop brought the stuff to my attention and I wasn't aware of the performance advantages until they sent me an article. Couldn't be happier with the stuff and get hood up performance with cool feet.
As far as doing it at home, I thought it needed to cure at 750 degrees to make a good bond, but I really don't know. Probably how they justify the rate of getting it done and the wife doesn't like when I bake car parts in the oven. The last go around with that was boiling a harmonic balancer on the stove and you would have thought I ran over the cat or forgot her birthday.
As far as doing it at home, I thought it needed to cure at 750 degrees to make a good bond, but I really don't know. Probably how they justify the rate of getting it done and the wife doesn't like when I bake car parts in the oven. The last go around with that was boiling a harmonic balancer on the stove and you would have thought I ran over the cat or forgot her birthday.
Here is a part of a post I found.....
Black Satin (BHK)
Black Satin is the most advanced exhaust system coating available
Withstands 2000f temperatures
Easy to apply ceramic reinforced coating designed for high temperature applications
Reduces underhood temperatures, reduces exhaust manifold surface temperatures
Improve exhaust gas velocity, increase H.P.
Air drying, requires no baking
Coverage: See above
www=caswellplating.com/aids/techline/
If this is the same stuff, and I think it is, then you could do the Y on the Jeep and "bake" it while driving. I just need to see how they apply it, and maybe I can do it while its all on the Jeep. But the cleanest would be to take it off of course. Looks like they have color coded stuff too.
I can think of a couple foot warmers that I've had over the years that I sure could have used this stuff on, especially the ones that had headers too close to the starter.
JK Super Freak
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,533
Likes: 0
From: Oxnard, CA
. Before you spend a wad of dough, I have some advice....take it or leave it. The 3.8 is a 60 degree v6. It's never going to be a powerhouse short of supercharging it. Best you'll be able to do is "fill in the gaps" so to speak. Such as the gap at around 2K RPM. Do your homework and you can do that with a good cat back.
www-google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-us&num=20&q=V6+60+degree+racing+engines&btnG=Searc h
You will find pages and pages of interesting "yes, we CaN do this."
Now perhaps there is a dearth of racing parts for our particular brand but there are similar engines that did quite well. The demand is growing so more people will get involved.
JK Junkie
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 3,017
Likes: 0
From: Lakewood, OH
I looked at some of those black satin links and I think I'm happy I left it to the professionals. Recommended application calls for a sandblasted surface, and airbrush for spraying. Mine were done inside and out and then cured in one of their ovens. Curing the black satin coating doesn't seem to be necessary, but perhaps just some of the special sauce from guys who have worked with it for a while.
I've definitely got the itch to get the Y piped done and after I get my new programmer honed in a bit I'll try to find a used one.
I've definitely got the itch to get the Y piped done and after I get my new programmer honed in a bit I'll try to find a used one.
JK Newbie
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
From: pearl, ms
[QUOTE=serveapurpose;1000689]Ok well I will have to disagree with you Redneck.... I run a CAI and here are a few pictures that will help eliminate your 
quote! Unless I fit into the third type of CAI user 
WET CONDITIONS DURING WHEELING!!
Is that a pt cruiser behind you???
quote! Unless I fit into the third type of CAI user WET CONDITIONS DURING WHEELING!!
Is that a pt cruiser behind you???