Stock brake system VS modified brake system
03-12-2016, 01:15 PM
#51
Super Moderator
See here:
UPDATED: Fixing the ?Dashboard Christmas Tree? in Jeeps | Off-road Vegan
I'm going to check my battery clamps, since that could be it since I disconnected the battery to do the BBK install. However, others have said the 3 lights could be due to a faulty wheel speed sensors as well. Which when I did the BBK install I had to disconnect the front driver's side speed sensor and then reconnect, so I guess that could be another possible cause. So there seems to be many different diagnostics tied to the 3 dash lights coming on. Before and after they come on, I notice my brakes seem to slip like there's air in the line. It all seems like a shot in the dark with this 3 dash light problem. I was thinking to start with having someone starscan bleed the brakes for me, to eliminate that as one of the causes.
These are the 3 lights I see coming on. (minus the O/D off light)
I typically take my car into Belle Tire, since they're open on weekends and that's the reason I was wondering if the starscan was a dealer only option since I rather have them do it on a weekend day rather than having to take off of work to go to a dealer and pay top dollar.
Was curious how much it would cost for the dealer to do it though.
Last edited by Rednroll; 03-12-2016 at 01:32 PM.
03-12-2016, 01:26 PM
#52
JK Freak
I have a Sears Diehard Platinum AGM, which is less than a year old. So I highly doubt it's the battery. I've read many who have had the 3 lights come on, but there seems to be quite a few different reasons others have diagnosed the reasons as to why they are coming on. Another I read is similar to what you described with the battery in that the battery terminal needed to be replaced or tightened. See here: UPDATED: Fixing the ?Dashboard Christmas Tree? in Jeeps | Off-road Vegan I'm going to check my battery clamps, since that could be it since I disconnected the battery to do the BBK install. However, others have said the 3 lights could be due to a faulty wheel speed sensors as well. Which when I did the BBK install I had to disconnect the front driver's side speed sensor and then reconnect, so I guess that could be another possible cause. So there seems to be many different diagnostics tied to the 3 dash lights coming on. Before and after they come on, I notice my brakes seem to slip like there's air in the line. It all seems like a shot in the dark with this 3 dash light problem. I was thinking to start with having someone starscan bleed the brakes for me, to eliminate that as one of the causes. I typically take my car into Belle Tire, since they're open on weekends and that's the reason I was wondering if the starscan was a dealer only option since I rather have them do it on a weekend day rather than having to take off of work to go to a dealer and pay top dollar. Was curious how much it would cost for the dealer to do it though.
03-12-2016, 07:08 PM
#53
JK Junkie
Yes. It is the 2011 & later master and has a slightly larger bore. It's better than the early stock master cylinder, but still not large enough to accommodate the much larger piston are of the dual piston calipers.
A tiny amount of travel at the caliper will translate into noticeable travel at the pedal. When you quick pump the brakes and the pedal level comes up slightly & firms up, you're taking up all the slack in the caliper pistons and the pins. If
You hold the pedal down and it doesn't move there's no air in the system. If it firms up but then slowly drops you still have have residual air in there.
It's a good question re: high, firm pedal on some but not all JKs. I did a BR6 conversion a couple years ago for one of my fellow club members. We swapped over the calipers (single piston), bled just the fronts and the pedal is high & firm. Do the TF BBK conversion and in most cases the pedal travel will increase and the feel will be a bit squishy. I've pressure bled mine while tapping the lines, etc. and had the dealer do the Starscan. They're just the way they are. I may try the Mopar BBK master & booster to see if they tighten up, but since they work great I don't see the need.
A tiny amount of travel at the caliper will translate into noticeable travel at the pedal. When you quick pump the brakes and the pedal level comes up slightly & firms up, you're taking up all the slack in the caliper pistons and the pins. If
You hold the pedal down and it doesn't move there's no air in the system. If it firms up but then slowly drops you still have have residual air in there.
It's a good question re: high, firm pedal on some but not all JKs. I did a BR6 conversion a couple years ago for one of my fellow club members. We swapped over the calipers (single piston), bled just the fronts and the pedal is high & firm. Do the TF BBK conversion and in most cases the pedal travel will increase and the feel will be a bit squishy. I've pressure bled mine while tapping the lines, etc. and had the dealer do the Starscan. They're just the way they are. I may try the Mopar BBK master & booster to see if they tighten up, but since they work great I don't see the need.
My brakes work well but I really hate the huge travel. I've got 300+ miles and maybe it's a bit better, but I am still not happy.
As for air in the system, it's hard to tell. I think there might be some. If I stand on the legal, it goes as long way down but eventually stops shy of the floor. Close, but not on it. But if there's some air in there,, once fully compressed, it'll stop the pedal.
Frustrating.
03-13-2016, 06:14 AM
#54
Super Moderator
This is the Mopar BBK. It's a complete kit. It comes with front dual piston calipers, 13in rotors, larger Master Cylinder, and larger booster and the best part is that it is composed of all OEM parts, so replacement parts can be easy to find.
The problem being described is that you upgraded to dual pistons calipers which require more fluid pressure to operate. To increase the fluid pressure, it is recommended to replace with a larger MC and brake booster which are additional parts the TF BBK doesn't come with but come in the Mopar BBK.
You shouldn't have that much travel. Your brakes either need to be bled properly or the stock MC and booster are inadequate for those TF calipers.
I kind of found all this out in my quest of searching for a BBK in this thread:
https://www.jk-forum.com/forums/modi...-cheap-326059/
Here's the info I posted when I did my install of the Mopar BBK. I paid $655 for the complete kit.
The problem being described is that you upgraded to dual pistons calipers which require more fluid pressure to operate. To increase the fluid pressure, it is recommended to replace with a larger MC and brake booster which are additional parts the TF BBK doesn't come with but come in the Mopar BBK.
You shouldn't have that much travel. Your brakes either need to be bled properly or the stock MC and booster are inadequate for those TF calipers.
I kind of found all this out in my quest of searching for a BBK in this thread:
https://www.jk-forum.com/forums/modi...-cheap-326059/
Here's the info I posted when I did my install of the Mopar BBK. I paid $655 for the complete kit.
Last edited by Rednroll; 03-13-2016 at 06:30 AM.
03-13-2016, 06:52 AM
#55
What's the Mopar BBK master & booster?
My brakes work well but I really hate the huge travel. I've got 300+ miles and maybe it's a bit better, but I am still not happy.
As for air in the system, it's hard to tell. I think there might be some. If I stand on the legal, it goes as long way down but eventually stops shy of the floor. Close, but not on it. But if there's some air in there,, once fully compressed, it'll stop the pedal.
Frustrating.
My brakes work well but I really hate the huge travel. I've got 300+ miles and maybe it's a bit better, but I am still not happy.
As for air in the system, it's hard to tell. I think there might be some. If I stand on the legal, it goes as long way down but eventually stops shy of the floor. Close, but not on it. But if there's some air in there,, once fully compressed, it'll stop the pedal.
Frustrating.
As I mentioned, the Mopar kit's master & booster may be a good upgrade to the TF kit, better than their master cylinder upgrade. These are off the shelf Mopar components.
Last edited by SoK66; 05-19-2016 at 12:57 PM.
03-13-2016, 02:03 PM
#56
JK Jedi
According to a couple sources the only time the Starscan is really required is when the ABS unit is replaced. Changing the master generally won't let air into it because the spoils are closed and sealed off. If you do the old gravel road brake slammed, letting the ABS cycle, the only way you'd get any air out would be to pressure bleed right there on the spot. If you don't it will just end up back in the motor pump unit, rather than in one of the circuits.
Fwiw, after I installed TF's master I had the local dealer do the Starscan bleed, made no difference whatsoever.
03-13-2016, 05:25 PM
#57
JK Junkie
As noted, it's Mopar's big brake kit, which is derived from the Ram 1500 (master/booster, calipers & caliper support brackets) with the 13" rotors from the BR6 option, which is the OEM heavy duty brake upgrade. Teraflex's BBK uses their own proprietary 13" rotors with calipers & rotors derived from Ram 1500.
As I mentioned, the Mopar kit's master & booster may be a good upgrade to the TF kit, better than their master cylinder upgrade. These are off the shelf Mopar components.
As I mentioned, the Mopar kit's master & booster may be a good upgrade to the TF kit, better than their master cylinder upgrade. These are off the shelf Mopar components.
But it's the MC that i'm sort of pissed about. I saw that there's an even bigger one out now using on the SEMA jeeps.
My brakes now are very good except for the huge travel of the pedal. I'll have them bled again and hope that works. I sort of feel like it won't though.
03-14-2016, 06:25 AM
#58
I really wish I would have seen this info before. I figure Teraflex has been around a while so I'm ok using them for replacement rotors and pads. But if they're the same as a Ram 1500, that would be good to know.
But it's the MC that i'm sort of pissed about. I saw that there's an even bigger one out now using on the SEMA jeeps.
My brakes now are very good except for the huge travel of the pedal. I'll have them bled again and hope that works. I sort of feel like it won't though.
But it's the MC that i'm sort of pissed about. I saw that there's an even bigger one out now using on the SEMA jeeps.
My brakes now are very good except for the huge travel of the pedal. I'll have them bled again and hope that works. I sort of feel like it won't though.
05-19-2016, 08:37 AM
#59
JK Newbie
Join Date: Nov 2013
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I realize this thread is a bit old, but hoping to get some info from RednRoll & SOK66, as they seem to know quite a bit about it...
I have an 08JK that has recently added slotted rotors & new performance pads (stock size) - i moved to 37s, and would like to get some better stopping power. I know the master cylinder in this year is weak, and found the upgraded Mopar one, but your posts got me thinking. What if I upgraded the MC, Booster & also to the dual piston calipers - is that an option when keeping the stock rotor size, do you know? The upgraded rotors would likely be something for the future, but since these are pretty new, I would like to use them if possible. If I went that way, what all would I need from the list that you all posted/commented on?
Thank you very much for the help - i appreciate it!
-randy
I have an 08JK that has recently added slotted rotors & new performance pads (stock size) - i moved to 37s, and would like to get some better stopping power. I know the master cylinder in this year is weak, and found the upgraded Mopar one, but your posts got me thinking. What if I upgraded the MC, Booster & also to the dual piston calipers - is that an option when keeping the stock rotor size, do you know? The upgraded rotors would likely be something for the future, but since these are pretty new, I would like to use them if possible. If I went that way, what all would I need from the list that you all posted/commented on?
Thank you very much for the help - i appreciate it!
-randy
05-19-2016, 01:21 PM
#60
I realize this thread is a bit old, but hoping to get some info from RednRoll & SOK66, as they seem to know quite a bit about it...
I have an 08JK that has recently added slotted rotors & new performance pads (stock size) - i moved to 37s, and would like to get some better stopping power. I know the master cylinder in this year is weak, and found the upgraded Mopar one, but your posts got me thinking. What if I upgraded the MC, Booster & also to the dual piston calipers - is that an option when keeping the stock rotor size, do you know? The upgraded rotors would likely be something for the future, but since these are pretty new, I would like to use them if possible. If I went that way, what all would I need from the list that you all posted/commented on?
Thank you very much for the help - i appreciate it!
-randy
I have an 08JK that has recently added slotted rotors & new performance pads (stock size) - i moved to 37s, and would like to get some better stopping power. I know the master cylinder in this year is weak, and found the upgraded Mopar one, but your posts got me thinking. What if I upgraded the MC, Booster & also to the dual piston calipers - is that an option when keeping the stock rotor size, do you know? The upgraded rotors would likely be something for the future, but since these are pretty new, I would like to use them if possible. If I went that way, what all would I need from the list that you all posted/commented on?
Thank you very much for the help - i appreciate it!
-randy
On the OEM front there are a couple ways to go. You can source the export upgrade 13" BR6 option parts, which are a larger rotor, extended caliper supports, matching caliper and pads, or, the more accesible and most exciting upgrade yet, the Mopar Big Brake Kit. This is a 13" front upgrade with parts derived from the military J8 pickup sold overseas. It includes the BR6's rotors, dual piston calipers, caliper supports, front brake lines, master cylinder & booster for about $650. Mopar Performance part numbers for their BBK, or the separate master & booster kit are P5160051 for the whole kit, or P5160050 for just the master & booster.
In your case you could try the Mopar BBK master & booster kit and see if it helps. I can't see how it could hurt. I have had the Teraflex BBK and upgraded master cylinder on mine for five years now and really liked the improvement. However it had that stepping on a wet sponge and long travel feel to the pedal, as even their upgraded master cylinder (essentially same as 2012 & later JKs) wasn't enough to hande the dual piston calipers. The Mopar BBK master & booster overcome all this. I just installed them and am really excited about the improvement.
OTOH, we see big improvements in rigs that use either the OEM BR6 upgrade, or just the Teraflex Big Rotor Kit, which essentially does the same thing as the BR6. That is, a larger rotor with an extended caliper support to increase braking leverage. FWIW, I put the BR6 parts on a club member's '08 a couple years ago and the improvement was remarkable, even using the stock master cylinder. She sourced the BR6 master & booster and never installed it, deemed unnecessary.