rob_engineer

I sometimes regret, but not often. I can't run through a drive thru and get some burgers and eat while I drive. Also I occasionally would have lent my Jeep to a family member if they needed it, but not all know how to drive a manual well.

Cutman

No regrets on my 14. In 3 years I've never questioned my decision. The transmission sucks but an auto wouldn't be any better.

ClanCannabis

No.









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MikeOK

I like my standard everywhere except in a technical rock garden. That's where an auto really shines. It's hard to be smooth when you're in low/low and are bouncing all over the place with a clutch. And I've owned several standard vehicles in my life, this is the hardest to drive smooth of them all. I recently got a ticket for rolling a stop sign because I got in the habit of staying in 2nd and not coming to a complete stop at stop signs.

spmitchell86

The newer 6spd JKs have hill start assist, kinda cheating... but it is nice to have the system hold the brake 1/2 a second if you're starting from a precarious position.

rob_engineer

Oh you touched on a sore subject. Hill start has existed since at least 2012. Most on here despise the feature. I'm on the fence about it, but here in NJ don't have to worry about it much. The force of brake it applies after you release the brake pedal is proportional to how hard you are pushing. If you lightly push it in with just enough force to prevent roll back, it makes it easier to get going because you more easily overcome the braking pressure.

mr72

I wonder if it's not different on newer JKs than it was in 2012. Because this:

So if I read you correctly, then the theory is that those who don't like the HSA must be holding the brake really hard before they try to take off and the HSA is holding the brake just as hard when they try to start rolling and it prevents the vehicle from rolling easily. Is that it? I'm not sure this is true, but I like the theory.

In my experience I have never, ever noticed the HSA holding the vehicle from going forward precisely and exactly when and how I want to go forward. In fact, as far as I can tell it's 100% transparent. And BTW my driveway is about a 25% grade so I experience HSA working every single time I drive my Jeep. To me it's just like an automatic hands-free version of holding the hand brake on a hill to get started. Again, I only ever even know it's on because magically I don't roll backward down a steep hill before I can get the Jeep moving forward. And BTW this feature by itself will hugely extend the lifetime of the clutch if you live in a hilly area, or like me, have to drive on a steep grade frequently.

My theory is that many Jeep owners learned or believe that the "right" way to hold a manual-transmission vehicle at a stop is to slip the clutch, which requires you to kind of feel the vehicle moving to match the clutch and throttle to keep it from rolling back. HSA prevents that sensation of movement that they are accustomed to feeling and they find that "intrusive". But the reality is that they are doing it wrong to begin with. Depending on the grade where you are stopped, you should either a) just drive normally (flat, nearly no incline), b) nearly instantaneously go from brake to throttle with your right foot when taking off so the vehicle has no time to roll before you get underway (slight to moderate incline) or c) use the hand brake to hold while you get your feet going on the throttle and clutch and release the hand brake just as you begin to pull forward (steep incline). I think most folks who think the "slip the clutch" method (which is none of those I mentioned) works have never experienced a steep enough incline to require the hand brake and they think I am some kind of fool to even suggest it. If you are on a steep enough incline to require it, let me assure you, you will destroy your clutch in very short order trying to keep from rolling back if you slip it, that is assuming you have enough traction to begin with and you don't simply spin the tires trying to get going.

IME the HSA on my 2015 JKU is just like a seamless and transparent automatic application of the "hand brake" technique. I never notice it's even doing anything until I am on a steep incline (which is somewhat often) and then the Jeep just doesn't roll back, instead just moving forward. Nothing to it.

My assumption was those who don't like the HSA just do the slip-clutch method and therefore think the HSA intrudes. I would be happy to be proven wrong, and find that it's actually that they are holding the brake too hard before going and the HSA is preventing forward motion. But I actually think in my own Jeep that once the Jeep begins moving forward at all, the brake is released. Maybe this is a difference in how later model JKs behave vs. earlier ones with HSA? In either case, I still say the reason those who don't like HSA don't like it is because they are used to doing something wrong, and it feels unfamiliar when it's done right.

[BTW, full disclosure, I did rent a VW Golf diesel while traveling in Italy a couple of years ago and almost immediately after I started driving it, I found the HSA feature to be quite intrusive and I turned it off. So truly maybe the newer JKs HSA is improved? Maybe the older HSA acted like the VW I drove in Italy? In that case, I really do stand corrected... and BTW I've been driving ~20K/year in manual-transmission cars exclusively for about 30 years now so I am not exactly a newbie to driving a manual... I'd guess experience-wise I am in the 99th percentile.]

rob_engineer

From what I understand, HSA became standard in the 2009 model year. When on an incline, it continues to apply the brakes for 2 seconds. For those 2 seconds, it's applying them with whatever force you had been using while your foot was pushing the brake pedal. I am not aware of any changes made to this system from 2009 through today, though I am not an expert. Try some experiments. Push the brake really hard, then try to do an instant jack rabbit start. I bet the HSA won't let you do it. I normally let my foot off the brake, then wait 1-2 seconds before letting out the clutch & giving it gas.

Machoo

Hill start assist is the first thing I turned off on my Jeep. And no I don't slip the clutch. I have never met another real stick driver that slips the clutch either. For us manual folks it is pretty commonly understood that slipping the clutch is akin to burning up the clutch.

My 2010 had HSA and it was a pain largely because for me and I imagine most other experienced manual drivers, I can get rolling on a hill almost instantly. The problem was that my feet were faster than the HSA which was still trying to hold me back when I was trying to get going. With some practice a stick driver gets to where you can get the vehicle moving even on a hill with little to no roll back and no delay. At that point HSA is not helping you. There have been times off-road however where it probably would have been fantastic! But on road i found it to be absolutely pointless.

Maybe the newer years were improved but I did not like it.

I do however love my six speed and wouldn't trade it for an automatic!!

mr72

Good to hear that

Yeah that's "b" from my post above. But you get on enough of an incline, like my driveway for example, and there is literally NO WAY to get the vehicle moving without using the brake to hold it before it rolls back. I mean, the INSTANT you remove your foot from the brake it begins rolling fast. On my driveway within a quarter of a second you will be rolling downhill at 10+mph and if you don't get on the brake immediately you will roll into the street at 20+mph and rapidly across the street and wind up in the neighbor's yard. Believe me, there are hills where you absolutely cannot under any circumstances begin moving forward without using either the hand brake or HSA (or you have three feet).

[FWIW my driveway is steep enough that you can't back my wife's Expedition up the driveway in reverse, it simply spins out and goes downhill instead of up it. You can't back any pickup truck up the driveway even with a rolling start, there's just not enough traction, they just spin out. ]

I am guessing you encounter this routinely off-road.

I think this means you were trying to use the "real fast" technique rather than relying on the HSA. So maybe some adapting is in order. HSA would still save miles on your clutch if you wanted to adapt.

Not on a steep incline. Steep enough and you HAVE to use the handbrake or HSA. Your "real fast" technique may get you going forward on a borderline steep incline if you catch the rolling-back vehicle quickly enough but you will eat a LOT of clutch doing this or chirp the tires, or just plain spin out.

Case in point: some 20 years ago my office parking lot had a Real Steep Hill right at the exit of the parking lot, which is a super dumb road design but that's what it was. Every day leaving work I did the "real fast" method to get going on this hill to make a left turn onto the 4-lane highway, which was kind of a borderline use-the-handbrake hill. After about two months of doing this daily in my 240Z the clutch went south from overheating. Thousands of tiny cracks in the pressure plate, a chunk of friction material ejected, and spring fingers bent on the p/p because they were superheated too many times and fatigued. After I replaced the clutch I used the handbrake on this hill from there on out.

But it's still my impression that on my Jeep the HSA releases the brake the instant the vehicle begins moving forward. I have never felt it holding it from moving forward. But I'm not trying to drag race my Jeep, so maybe it's just that I don't get in that much of a hurry.