JBA headers
JK Freak
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 590
Likes: 1
From: State College, PA
For my particular jeep, I was getting 133 HP stock, then 147 with the headers alone, then 179 with headers and the tune. We dyno'd it at every point.
JPop, why exactly do you question the dyno results? Is it that you just don't believe the numbers, or is there a technical reason you question them? Based on all your posts, it looks like you are an automotive engineer/technician with many years of experience working with these Jeeps and other vehicles.
I am not an automotive technician and do not claim to be. But I can tell you that I definitely felt a big difference at every stage of the install. They installed the headers first and no tune, because they hadn't yet worked out the tune, so I drove it a couple of months with just the headers installed, and I could absolutely tell a difference. Then, when they had a tune, I gave my Jeep to them for the tune and when I got it back, I again felt a big difference. Even though I'm not an automotive engineer, I am a degreed engineer and know something about horsepower, torque and weight and with 35" tires, a 5000 lb vehicle is going to have to have a rather significant HP and torque increase for you to feel it as I have.
JPop, why exactly do you question the dyno results? Is it that you just don't believe the numbers, or is there a technical reason you question them? Based on all your posts, it looks like you are an automotive engineer/technician with many years of experience working with these Jeeps and other vehicles.
I am not an automotive technician and do not claim to be. But I can tell you that I definitely felt a big difference at every stage of the install. They installed the headers first and no tune, because they hadn't yet worked out the tune, so I drove it a couple of months with just the headers installed, and I could absolutely tell a difference. Then, when they had a tune, I gave my Jeep to them for the tune and when I got it back, I again felt a big difference. Even though I'm not an automotive engineer, I am a degreed engineer and know something about horsepower, torque and weight and with 35" tires, a 5000 lb vehicle is going to have to have a rather significant HP and torque increase for you to feel it as I have.
I respect his experience but he is a salesman and does not know any of the fluid dynamics, thermodynamics, solid mechanics, or any of the other laws of physics that go into an engine. As for advice I would have about headers. Ceramic coating would probably help to keep your plug boots from melting (especially if combined with other heat mitigation strategies).
BUT one piece of advice I have for everyone reading this thread is keep your catalytic converters in mind when fooling around with headers and tuners. If you get a set of the shorty headers and insulate them well enough to keep the plug boots from melting, that extra heat has to go somewhere, which is through the catalytic converters (and eventually out the tailpipe).
If you get a tuner that generally richens up the air/fuel mixture to gain those 5 - 10 extra horsepower, the extra UHC (unburned hydrocarbons) and CO (carbon dioxide) from the richer mixture ALSO has to be processed by the catalytic converters. When the UHC and CO are oxidized (using the NOx generated in the engine as an oxidizer in a typical 3-way catalytic converter) that reaction generates heat. So extra heat from insulating the headers (to protect your spark plug boots) PLUS added heat from the exothermic reactions of the UHC and CO oxidation combines to get the catalytic converters MUCH hotter.
To that I say if you need to keep your Jeep CARB compliant and don't want to melt your catalytic converters, be aware of this potentially bad situation. I am sure you would be fine with the RIPP set-up as it seems like they use high-temp catalytic converters and wouldn't require ceramic coating or header wrap but I don't think the RIPP header kit is CARB compliant (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) so not all of us can use their headers. The stock catalytic converters have a maximum operating temperature and if you run a rich mixture and insulate the exhaust manifold so that the exhaust passing through the converters is already as hot as possible, you could very easily exceed these limits (especially when running for extended periods of time on hill climbs etc.) Just food for throught!
Sponsoring Manufacturer
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,189
Likes: 2
From: New York
Don't worry, JPop just dislikes engineers so if he gives you crap don't worry about it
To that I say if you need to keep your Jeep CARB compliant and don't want to melt your catalytic converters, be aware of this potentially bad situation. I am sure you would be fine with the RIPP set-up as it seems like they use high-temp catalytic converters and wouldn't require ceramic coating or header wrap but I don't think the RIPP header kit is CARB compliant (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) so not all of us can use their headers. The stock catalytic converters have a maximum operating temperature and if you run a rich mixture and insulate the exhaust manifold so that the exhaust passing through the converters is already as hot as possible, you could very easily exceed these limits (especially when running for extended periods of time on hill climbs etc.) Just food for throught!
To that I say if you need to keep your Jeep CARB compliant and don't want to melt your catalytic converters, be aware of this potentially bad situation. I am sure you would be fine with the RIPP set-up as it seems like they use high-temp catalytic converters and wouldn't require ceramic coating or header wrap but I don't think the RIPP header kit is CARB compliant (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) so not all of us can use their headers. The stock catalytic converters have a maximum operating temperature and if you run a rich mixture and insulate the exhaust manifold so that the exhaust passing through the converters is already as hot as possible, you could very easily exceed these limits (especially when running for extended periods of time on hill climbs etc.) Just food for throught!
Great input - We are carb compliant (but not legal) the simple fact that we removed the standard cats and replaced them with full stainless steel units kills the deal. The cats are designed for Audi S4 V6 turbo models - so they will take a ton of heat - in fact we tested it (cherry red hot sustained for 10mins with full load on the dyno). Also we retain all the factory heat shields, their thermal barrier is awesome.
Additionally when we provided the tune we are conservative in our tuning maps, we figured most guys looking for more low end grunt were going to have high loads...
RIPPTECH
JK Junkie
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 3,017
Likes: 0
From: Lakewood, OH
They don't.
If you want to say that a Diablo Predator plus a set of your headers and a custom tune make 50 hp, it's a stretch but palatable. The majority of power gain is still coming from the Diablo Predator.
Sponsoring Manufacturer
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,189
Likes: 2
From: New York
What I am saying is that it is disingenuous to say that your headers make 50 hp.
They don't.
If you want to say that a Diablo Predator plus a set of your headers and a custom tune make 50 hp, it's a stretch but palatable. The majority of power gain is still coming from the Diablo Predator.
They don't.
If you want to say that a Diablo Predator plus a set of your headers and a custom tune make 50 hp, it's a stretch but palatable. The majority of power gain is still coming from the Diablo Predator.
Mods list installed
Tune
Temps
Trans lock up
Was 50 f'n wheel HP - circumstances aside - the header made 50WHP... no short tube will ever ever come close. The EGT's shoot up fast with the stock manifolds... and the cats melt when you throw the timing forward and lean it out.
That being said your welcome to try... good luck.
RIPPTECH
JK Freak
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 652
Likes: 0
From: SoCal
If somoeone out there is advertising this it's marketing B.S. I bet there are no dyno numbers to support 80/50 as well.
Shorties alone on my C32 yield 10/15 and from a stop it's noticable in the way of torque. Mid-range you would be hard pressed to tell stock from a unit with headers.
JK Junkie
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 3,017
Likes: 0
From: Lakewood, OH
Funny however is that the follow up comments were exactly in line with my 30/70 estimates, 14 hp from the headers and 32 hp more with a Diablo tune. Those are awesome numbers and to be applauded. The headers are obviously just part of the story.
I didn't conjure my estimates from thin air, just real experience where the rubber hits the road. Lesson learned from guys who raced Pro Stocks when they were running in the 10s during my youth to today when an NA car in the 10s wouldn't be close to the quickest NA car on a Wednesday night. My share of mistakes and hard knocks, along with successes from knowledge gained. Experience based knowledge, not just spewing what was in the textbook this semester.
JK Freak
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 652
Likes: 0
From: SoCal
Dyno numbers don't always tell the whole story. They are misleading when you make multiple changes and only attribute gains to one item. If I dropped a hemi in my JK and put chrome wheels on it and I attributed the gains to the wheels it isn't exactly truthful. Sure it cranked more power and it didn't before the wheels were on but I can't dismiss the hemi under the hood.
While the long tube headers and tune aren't exactly the same, but we're left with a mess to discern where the gains were actually coming from. 50hp gains are outlandish to attribute to a set of headers alone, but if you have the whole laundry list it begins to piece together the puzzle.
I am not an engineer nor anyone that works in the automotive industry. I just have a lot of years drag racing and understand how difficult it is to gain power. PCM tuning and programming is the most cost effective way to gain power, and real world gains by anything else is exponentially more expensive. That's not to say it isn't worth it, just that I have a real issue with how some of this stuff is represented.
While the long tube headers and tune aren't exactly the same, but we're left with a mess to discern where the gains were actually coming from. 50hp gains are outlandish to attribute to a set of headers alone, but if you have the whole laundry list it begins to piece together the puzzle.
I am not an engineer nor anyone that works in the automotive industry. I just have a lot of years drag racing and understand how difficult it is to gain power. PCM tuning and programming is the most cost effective way to gain power, and real world gains by anything else is exponentially more expensive. That's not to say it isn't worth it, just that I have a real issue with how some of this stuff is represented.
Having played with motors throughout H.S. on old muscle cars and after you realize real quickly that the numbers advertised usually don't add up or are overstaded more often than not.Only way to really determine real gains is to baseline dyno your vehicle and then after each performance mod you throw on it --- and use the same dyno shop for consistent results.
JK Junkie
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 3,017
Likes: 0
From: Lakewood, OH
Are you suggesting that a Diablo Predator doesn't provide any gains on it's own?
JK Enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 378
Likes: 0
From: Saint Augustine, FL
Provide us with dyno results of a fully customed tuned 3.8L with stock manifolds so we can compare apples to apples. I will bet the header gain alone will be in the 10 rwhp range at best. I have plenty of experience in this realm and with respect to n/a motors, nothing short of a 500hp LS7 would ever see a gain of 50 rwhp from headers alone. The 3.8 is a turd.
Sponsoring Manufacturer
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,189
Likes: 2
From: New York
Provide us with dyno results of a fully customed tuned 3.8L with stock manifolds so we can compare apples to apples. I will bet the header gain alone will be in the 10 rwhp range at best. I have plenty of experience in this realm and with respect to n/a motors, nothing short of a 500hp LS7 would ever see a gain of 50 rwhp from headers alone. The 3.8 is a turd.
This is a the before and after - below is this trucks (Steviray's who has praised these since day one) dyno sheets from stock to tuned...
Just header installed on stock tune and mods -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAhLZYsnbLo Header with RIPP Provided Diablo Tune
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tC5cBPm3bNw
- Stock HP: Brown Run #001 is the original HP the truck made when we first got it, it produced 130-/+ rear wheel HP
- Bolt on header no tune: Blue Run #003 is the same run in the video used in the Before tuning. It produced 145-/+ rear wheel HP and touched 175ft/lbs of Torque.
- Header and RIPP Tune: Purple Run #010 is the same run we made in the video which we narrated yesterday. That produced the 230ft/lbs of torque and 180+ rear wheel HP...
Note run number 011 is a comparison run we were looking for with another truck, please disregard... we gave up and inadvertently left it up there.
Questions welcome
RIPPTECH
Last edited by RIPPMODS; Dec 2, 2010 at 10:03 AM.