My thoughts on lifts
JK Jedi
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,364
Likes: 107
From: missoula,mt
I know lots of Harley guys think that if you run straight pipes you go faster even tho actual testing prove otherwise lol.
JK Newbie
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 79
Likes: 0
From: Colorado Springs, CO
Don't flame; I'm going to ask the obvious question - did you have a good 4 wheel alignment done after the install?
Last edited by TheOneJeep; Nov 4, 2013 at 04:16 AM.
Thread Starter
JK Jedi
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,222
Likes: 376
From: Southwest Reno, NV
Also advised is replacing the front driveshaft on a JKU, or the rear one on a JK for instance, but that either, wasn't the point.
The point was your claim that 2.5" has much better handling than 4", because of the 4" increased arm angle and higher COG.
If 2.5" lift has much better handling than 4", the handling of my 4" lifted JKU would have been worse than a stock JKU. It steers and handles much better than stock.
How is that possible? - because of two things:
1. A difference of just 1.5" lift, does not - and cannot - cause a meaningful effect on handling.
2. Other things influence handling much more than an extra 1.5" lift.
Relatively soft coils, and shocks which are valved to work well with the specific coils, for instance.
The one thing, which considerably improved steering and handling, was replacing the rear track bar with a Full Traction CRC Link (eliminates the sideways movements of the axle).
I consider it to be the best mod I did.
The larger wheels' contribution is mainly on trails, and even there they're not needed all the time, but the CRC improved steering and handling is there, whenever I drive.
The steering & handling improvement is such, that I'd have chosen a 4" lift again, just because it allows installing the CRC, and it's not available for 2.5" lift.
AEV also sell their hood design.
Well thought out venting hoods have the side vents at the back, near the firewall. That's where the hot air is pushed back to and accumulates, that's where it should be allowed to escape.
AEV have the side vents at the front, where they're pretty much ineffective... then, they designed a snorkel, which completely plugs one of the two side vents... I like companies for which 'form follows function', and not the other way around.
Before installing the 4" lift, I considered long arms, and compared two similar 4" lifted Jeeps.
There were two differences. One difference was the color... the other difference was that one had long arms, the other had short arms and a bit softer coils/shocks.
All of us -- the owner of the long-armed Jeep, a very experienced 4x4 shop owner who is also offroading a lot, and me -- agreed that the long arms had no advantage on or off road, and that the short arms with the bit softer suspension behaved nicer, especially during trail sprints.
My conclusion from that comparison, and other long arms I've driven, is that 4" lift isn't tall enough to allow long arms to materialize their potential. Starting at about 6" lift, long arms contribute much, and in fact necessary.
Let's conclude that we disagree on the 2.5" vs 4" lift handling, and move on...
The point was your claim that 2.5" has much better handling than 4", because of the 4" increased arm angle and higher COG.
If 2.5" lift has much better handling than 4", the handling of my 4" lifted JKU would have been worse than a stock JKU. It steers and handles much better than stock.
How is that possible? - because of two things:
1. A difference of just 1.5" lift, does not - and cannot - cause a meaningful effect on handling.
2. Other things influence handling much more than an extra 1.5" lift.
Relatively soft coils, and shocks which are valved to work well with the specific coils, for instance.
The one thing, which considerably improved steering and handling, was replacing the rear track bar with a Full Traction CRC Link (eliminates the sideways movements of the axle).
I consider it to be the best mod I did.
The larger wheels' contribution is mainly on trails, and even there they're not needed all the time, but the CRC improved steering and handling is there, whenever I drive.
The steering & handling improvement is such, that I'd have chosen a 4" lift again, just because it allows installing the CRC, and it's not available for 2.5" lift.
AEV also sell their hood design.
Well thought out venting hoods have the side vents at the back, near the firewall. That's where the hot air is pushed back to and accumulates, that's where it should be allowed to escape.
AEV have the side vents at the front, where they're pretty much ineffective... then, they designed a snorkel, which completely plugs one of the two side vents... I like companies for which 'form follows function', and not the other way around.
Before installing the 4" lift, I considered long arms, and compared two similar 4" lifted Jeeps.
There were two differences. One difference was the color... the other difference was that one had long arms, the other had short arms and a bit softer coils/shocks.
All of us -- the owner of the long-armed Jeep, a very experienced 4x4 shop owner who is also offroading a lot, and me -- agreed that the long arms had no advantage on or off road, and that the short arms with the bit softer suspension behaved nicer, especially during trail sprints.
My conclusion from that comparison, and other long arms I've driven, is that 4" lift isn't tall enough to allow long arms to materialize their potential. Starting at about 6" lift, long arms contribute much, and in fact necessary.
Let's conclude that we disagree on the 2.5" vs 4" lift handling, and move on...
If we say you have an awesome jeep and it has the best designed suspension that has ever been developed and you drive it like a rock god will you just go away?
Nobody is saying a 4" lift is bad and you should quit taking it so personal, just saying that a 4" lift has almost no advantage over 2.5" lift, and if handling and performance is what you are looking for then a 2.5" will in fact do that. It will also cost you less in the long run.
JK Junkie
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,145
Likes: 4
From: Israel
LOL... I couldn't care less what you or anyone says about my Jeep, it was modded to suit me, and not others' opinions.
I used it as an example for the point I made.
Nobody is saying a 4" lift is bad and you should quit taking it so personal, just saying that a 4" lift has almost no advantage over 2.5" lift, and if handling and performance is what you are looking for then a 2.5" will in fact do that.
And no, I certainly don't take it personally LOL... It's you who just tried to turn an example I gave, into a personal issue.
My comments regarded a specific claim, and that claim only -- that the handling of 2.5" lift is much better than of 4" lift, and that the handling difference, because of just +1.5" lift, is drastic.
I have yet to see anything that shows otherwise.
Instead, I've seen very biased "comparisons":
"If you were to compare two Jeeps, one set up with a 4" short arm kit on 33" tires and one with a 2" lift and 37" tires with trimmed fenders the one on 37's, if properly geared, would run circles around the higher lifted Jeep. It would climb better, clear bigger rocks, be more stable in off camber situations, and would handle better on road due to the lower center of gravity. Both Jeeps would be the same height overall."
2. The 2" lift "would handle better on road due to the lower center of gravity". Then -- "Both Jeeps would be the same height overall." ... Do you see the contradiction?
Both COGs would be at the same height. Who creates confusion here ?
The COG, of the sprung mass, can sway a little bit more on the 4" lift, that's all.
My claim was, and is, very specific:
+1.5" of lift can have a bit of influence on handling, but not a major influence, as was claimed here.
If there's hard evidence for the contrary, I'd really like to see it.
I really don't care what others think about my Jeep, or do with theirs.
If either complimenting or badmouthing my Jeep makes you feel good, feel free...
I'm factual, not personal. If you have hard evidence, please show it.
If hard evidence proves that I was wrong, I'll have no problem admitting it.
Last edited by GJeep; Nov 5, 2013 at 12:06 PM.
Thread Starter
JK Jedi
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,222
Likes: 376
From: Southwest Reno, NV
Are you off your meds?
In your issue #1 yes tire make the biggest difference on the performance, thanks for restating what is already known and stated. More lift then needed for tire clearance is also of no benefit other then belly clearance and mb approach and declination angles.
issue# 2 yes, both have the same height and different centers of gravity due to control arm geometry. Question was asked and answered already. Nobody ran you or your rig down, we just told you that you were wrong and spreading false information and assumptions. Enjoy your rig if you are happy with it, I don't expect you to run out and run smaller coils.
I said you were awesome, now please go away.
In your issue #1 yes tire make the biggest difference on the performance, thanks for restating what is already known and stated. More lift then needed for tire clearance is also of no benefit other then belly clearance and mb approach and declination angles.
issue# 2 yes, both have the same height and different centers of gravity due to control arm geometry. Question was asked and answered already. Nobody ran you or your rig down, we just told you that you were wrong and spreading false information and assumptions. Enjoy your rig if you are happy with it, I don't expect you to run out and run smaller coils.
I said you were awesome, now please go away.
Last edited by TheDirtman; Nov 5, 2013 at 12:13 PM.
Forum Tech Advisor
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,208
Likes: 11
From: Billings, MT
He has fixed control arms and fixed track bars. There is no adjustability possible to do a 4 wheel alignment. No thrust angle. No caster or camber adjustment.
There is virtually no change in front end toe specs with a 2.5" lift over stock.
The only thing that is needed with a 2.5" lift is to adjust the drag link to center the steering wheel.
JK Newbie
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
From: Three Oaks, Michigan
Those that have done any reading on this topic at all should know who to listen to. Dirtman and Planman, my respects and thanks for the sound advice.
