Metalcloak Thread
-
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 830
Likes: 0
From: Michigan
Attachment 459787Attachment 459788Ok guys, I'll join the fun now... about 4 months ago I ordered 2.5" metalcloak coils to pair up with my Rancho 9000XL adjustables.
I was already running a 2.5" spacer lift with 35" tires.
we measured front and back prior to install of the springs and after installation.
did the numbers and I literally gained 2 and 3/4 inches OVER my 2.5" spacer lift.
I'm actually wondering if a mistake was made when they sent me the springs because I should not have netted a 4 3/4" lift over stock.... I was expecting about 3" as they account for armor when marketing the springs.
anyone else get crazy lift yeilds out of their springs from MC? BTW, Im not mad at all.... im loving it.
The ride is firm but since I have adjustable shocks... I just dialed them in and it rides like a dream... especially with the AEV control arm brackets... all geometry is within stock specs and yeilding 4 3/4 " of lift.
The TJ beside my JKU has a 3.5" lift which I don't remember the brand.
I was already running a 2.5" spacer lift with 35" tires.
we measured front and back prior to install of the springs and after installation.
did the numbers and I literally gained 2 and 3/4 inches OVER my 2.5" spacer lift.
I'm actually wondering if a mistake was made when they sent me the springs because I should not have netted a 4 3/4" lift over stock.... I was expecting about 3" as they account for armor when marketing the springs.
anyone else get crazy lift yeilds out of their springs from MC? BTW, Im not mad at all.... im loving it.
The ride is firm but since I have adjustable shocks... I just dialed them in and it rides like a dream... especially with the AEV control arm brackets... all geometry is within stock specs and yeilding 4 3/4 " of lift.
The TJ beside my JKU has a 3.5" lift which I don't remember the brand.
Sent from my iPhone
JK Junkie
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,145
Likes: 4
From: Israel
If you're wondering if they sent you the correct springs. Compare your measurements to these.
Attachment 459802
Attachment 459802
Where can I find the same for the other end?
Is there a source for all of the Jeep measurements?
JK Enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
From: Chicago, IL
JK Junkie
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,145
Likes: 4
From: Israel
What advantage? They do not add to articulation, and short arms do not limit the travel of the MC lift.
Long arm are good, in fact necessary, for 6" lift or more. Up to about 4" lift, long arms have no advantage.
The Jeep, in the picture on the left, has air springs lift. In the picture, the lift is at its max', about 8"~9".
At the time, except for the air springs and Fox shocks, everything was stock, including the arms, wheels and tires (245/75/17).
The Jeep climbed that step quite easily, just touching the right side-step.
Without that much lift, it would have sat on its belly.
On that step, regular long arms would have pressed against the ground, while the short arms didn't.
Offroad capability depends a lot on the coil/shock combination.
Like tire type & pressure, the coil/shock combination determines whether the Jeep would be too bouncy, too hard or too soft.
Coil/shock combination also determines how level it stays with a lot of articulation (or how much/little does the center of gravity move) – and all this influences the amount of grab, and how well does a Jeep 'take' obstacles.
Some lifts perform better than others, and MC - from what I read and the videos I watched - is among the best.
(Well, it all depends on the driver "too"…
)
Last edited by GJeep; May 20, 2013 at 04:59 AM.
-
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 830
Likes: 0
From: Michigan
JK Super Freak
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,467
Likes: 0
From: Torrington CT
This implies that long arms would give an advantage over short arms.
What advantage? They do not add to articulation, and short arms do not limit the travel of the MC lift.
You are correct, they do not "add" articulation, however they can reduce bind on longer travel 4 links. And no, short arms don't necessarily limit travel, but they do cause more axle steer, more wheelbase loss at droop, more tendancy to pull at droop, and as I said before, can induce bind.
Long arm are good, in fact necessary , for 6" lift or more. Up to about 4" lift, long arms have no advantage.
The Jeep, in the picture on the left, has air springs lift. In the picture, the lift is at its max', about 8"~9". At the time, except for the air springs and Fox shocks, everything was stock, including the arms, wheels and tires (245/75/17).
The Jeep climbed that step quite easily, just touching the right side-step.
Without that much lift, it would have sat on its belly.
Rather strong contradiction there, but I see what you were getting at.
But saying there is no advantage to long arms at 4" of lift isn't necessarily true. The two biggest are axle pull up front at full droop, and axle steer (primarily rear steer). Both are heavily improved by lengthening of the control arms. Also, depending on how well the system was designed, you can see big improvements in off road vehicle characteristics, primarily anti-squat on climbs. None of those figures can ever be improved with a bolt on short arm. period.
On that step, regular long arms would have pressed against the ground, while the short arms didn't.
Offroad capability depends a lot on the coil/shock combination.
Like tire type & pressure, the coil/shock combination determines whether the Jeep would be too bouncy, too hard or too soft.
Coil/shock combination also determines how level it stays with a lot of articulation (or how much/little does the center of gravity move) – and all this influences the amount of grab, and how well does a Jeep 'take' obstacles.
Both of those^ points have a little to do do with coil/spring matching, and a lot to do with geometry, primarly roll center, instant center, anti-squat/anti-dive, etc. All of which are improved when improving suspension geometry. Bouncing is almost always related to the anti-squat numbers of the rear suspension. Which can't be improved with a bolt on lift. Vehicle roll tendancy is a balance of springs/shocks, sway bars(which are much more important than people recognize) and above all else, the vehicels roll center height in relationship to center of gravity. Roll center can be improved by raising both front and rear trackbars at the axle as high as possible, usually 3" in the front (consistant with a drag link flip) and 3"-4" in the rear. A slightly higher rear roll center keeps the jeep more stable on road. The closer the RC to the CG, the less body roll on and off road.
Some lifts perform better than others, and MC - from what I read and the videos I watched - is among the best.
(Well, it all depends on the driver "too"…)
What advantage? They do not add to articulation, and short arms do not limit the travel of the MC lift.
You are correct, they do not "add" articulation, however they can reduce bind on longer travel 4 links. And no, short arms don't necessarily limit travel, but they do cause more axle steer, more wheelbase loss at droop, more tendancy to pull at droop, and as I said before, can induce bind.
Long arm are good, in fact necessary , for 6" lift or more. Up to about 4" lift, long arms have no advantage.
The Jeep, in the picture on the left, has air springs lift. In the picture, the lift is at its max', about 8"~9". At the time, except for the air springs and Fox shocks, everything was stock, including the arms, wheels and tires (245/75/17).
The Jeep climbed that step quite easily, just touching the right side-step.
Without that much lift, it would have sat on its belly.
Rather strong contradiction there, but I see what you were getting at.
But saying there is no advantage to long arms at 4" of lift isn't necessarily true. The two biggest are axle pull up front at full droop, and axle steer (primarily rear steer). Both are heavily improved by lengthening of the control arms. Also, depending on how well the system was designed, you can see big improvements in off road vehicle characteristics, primarily anti-squat on climbs. None of those figures can ever be improved with a bolt on short arm. period.
On that step, regular long arms would have pressed against the ground, while the short arms didn't.
Offroad capability depends a lot on the coil/shock combination.
Like tire type & pressure, the coil/shock combination determines whether the Jeep would be too bouncy, too hard or too soft.
Coil/shock combination also determines how level it stays with a lot of articulation (or how much/little does the center of gravity move) – and all this influences the amount of grab, and how well does a Jeep 'take' obstacles.
Both of those^ points have a little to do do with coil/spring matching, and a lot to do with geometry, primarly roll center, instant center, anti-squat/anti-dive, etc. All of which are improved when improving suspension geometry. Bouncing is almost always related to the anti-squat numbers of the rear suspension. Which can't be improved with a bolt on lift. Vehicle roll tendancy is a balance of springs/shocks, sway bars(which are much more important than people recognize) and above all else, the vehicels roll center height in relationship to center of gravity. Roll center can be improved by raising both front and rear trackbars at the axle as high as possible, usually 3" in the front (consistant with a drag link flip) and 3"-4" in the rear. A slightly higher rear roll center keeps the jeep more stable on road. The closer the RC to the CG, the less body roll on and off road.
Some lifts perform better than others, and MC - from what I read and the videos I watched - is among the best.
(Well, it all depends on the driver "too"…
)They are not the same.
JK Jedi
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,222
Likes: 376
From: Southwest Reno, NV
Thanks Mike for chiming in on the subject.
Gjeep,
I said nothing about a long arm set up and if you want to believe the myth that they are only good for 4"+ thats fine, you would be wrong but thats fine. Most people with that attitude make that statement on long arms do it because they either can not afford a long arm kit or they do not have the knowledge or ability to install one. A properly set up long arm even at 2" will out perform a bolt on short arm mainly in its climbing ability and rock crawling where you have massive articulation going on. Its all in the geometry.
I was commenting on how the mc lift will not give you any more ability to do a climb like you showed when compared to another short arm bolt on kit while it was stated that the mc lift somehow gives a jeep greater abilities then other lifts out there. A statement like that shows the lack of knowledge of how a suspension works. Those mc arms just hold the axle in place, that is it. The joints have a lot of mis-alignment built into them but you will never see that kind of articulation from the jk on a short arm to even come close to needing that much. Same with a Johnny joint, on the JK you will never be able to bind them on a bolt short arm set up unless you have some arms that are bent out of alignment.
Gjeep,
I said nothing about a long arm set up and if you want to believe the myth that they are only good for 4"+ thats fine, you would be wrong but thats fine. Most people with that attitude make that statement on long arms do it because they either can not afford a long arm kit or they do not have the knowledge or ability to install one. A properly set up long arm even at 2" will out perform a bolt on short arm mainly in its climbing ability and rock crawling where you have massive articulation going on. Its all in the geometry.
I was commenting on how the mc lift will not give you any more ability to do a climb like you showed when compared to another short arm bolt on kit while it was stated that the mc lift somehow gives a jeep greater abilities then other lifts out there. A statement like that shows the lack of knowledge of how a suspension works. Those mc arms just hold the axle in place, that is it. The joints have a lot of mis-alignment built into them but you will never see that kind of articulation from the jk on a short arm to even come close to needing that much. Same with a Johnny joint, on the JK you will never be able to bind them on a bolt short arm set up unless you have some arms that are bent out of alignment.
